(10-17-2022, 04:58 PM)Wyche Wrote: Then Palmer gets with Bruce Arians and goes to a NFCCG with two bum knees, an ailing shoulder, and that elbow. I think it's safe to say we know the anchor that kept this team from winning playoff games.

Be careful, you're going to summon someone from the ban dungeon.

If Andy dalton was above average.

Why is the only job he can get in the nfl 1 year backup jobs?

(10-17-2022, 04:58 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Then Palmer gets with Bruce Arians and goes to a NFCCG with two bum knees, an ailing shoulder, and that elbow. I think it's safe to say we know the anchor that kept this team from winning playoff games.

Easy- they won one playoff game and then Carson proceeded to throw 5 picks the next game or something outrageous.

(10-17-2022, 06:37 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Great post. In his best years (2011-2015), Dalton was ranked 14th in EPA per play. There are a couple of ways of "factually" looking at this - relative ranking, and Z-Score. Dalton ranked 14th out of 37 QBs that logged over 1000 dropbacks from 2011-2015. Slightly above average. From a Z-Score perspective, he scored a 0.28. 

0 is perfectly average
1 is good
2 is fantastic
3 is generational

Dalton was slightly above average in the 2011-2015 campaigns. He fell off after that, but so did the rest of the team. We always knew this, too. Dalton needed a talented roster to produce. Once that talent started dipping, he wasn't able to compensate.

Exactly. He was a solid QB but not good enough to elevate a bad roster. After the beatings he took and switching coordinators every year for roughly 7 years straight, I don't think he's the same guy he was at 25 that he is at 35.

That said, I can't stand the hyperbole. He wasn't a backup. He didn't suck. Also, most years he was here, we weren't really in good spots to take a QB anyway. Not that every QB in the draft is Joe Burrow.

(10-17-2022, 06:49 PM)ATOTR Wrote: If Andy dalton was above average.

Why is the only job he can get in the nfl 1 year backup jobs?

He's 35 and was taking the beatings here before Joe Burrow made it cool.

He's not the same guy he was in 2015. Even then, he was kinda middling as a starter.

Teams don't commit to aging starters who were middling at their peak, and on the decline.

(10-17-2022, 06:51 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Easy- they won one playoff game and then Carson proceeded to throw 5 picks the next game or something outrageous.

Still one more than he won in Cincy, and he was also better in Prime Time in AZ.

(10-17-2022, 06:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly. He was a solid QB but not good enough to elevate a bad roster. After the beatings he took and switching coordinators every year for roughly 7 years straight, I don't think he's the same guy he was at 25 that he is at 35.

That said, I can't stand the hyperbole. He wasn't a backup. He didn't suck. Also, most years he was here, we weren't really in good spots to take a QB anyway. Not that every QB in the draft is Joe Burrow.

Bingo 

Saying he sucked, stunk, and so on is just exaggerating. We went down the ML/AD/MB road so much I have no desire to travel down it again. But nothing will ever convince me that all those playoff losses and PT/bright light meltdowns were all on Dalton, not even close.

(10-17-2022, 06:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: He's 35 and was taking the beatings here before Joe Burrow made it cool.

He's not the same guy he was in 2015. Even then, he was kinda middling as a starter.

Teams don't commit to aging starters who were middling at their peak, and on the decline.

He was 32 when the bengals released him

(10-17-2022, 12:04 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I'd love to see Dalton come back here in Allen's place. Burrow gets us to the Super Bowl, and by the 3rd quarter gets us a huge lead. Andy comes in and QBs the 4th quarter. Joe gets a ring. Andy gets a ring, with both playing, here in Cincy, and all is right with the world

I would love that!

(10-17-2022, 06:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Calling Dalton (at his peak) a backup QB is a dumb take.

2. Your "stat/fact" has been debunked as many times as it's been regurgitated. The folly in this stat is that it judges Andy against only the top 32 QB's when there are often 40+ that qualify.

The better way to judge Andy would be against all qualifiers or to judge his passer rating against the league total for each year.

3. The playoff and prime time stats have to be taken with a giant grain of salt because Dalton played under Marvin Lewis. Palmer had terrible Prime Time stats, too. Until he left, anyways.

(10-17-2022, 06:37 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Great post. In his best years (2011-2015), Dalton was ranked 14th in EPA per play. There are a couple of ways of "factually" looking at this - relative ranking, and Z-Score. Dalton ranked 14th out of 37 QBs that logged over 1000 dropbacks from 2011-2015. Slightly above average. From a Z-Score perspective, he scored a 0.28. 

0 is perfectly average
1 is good
2 is fantastic
3 is generational

Dalton was slightly above average in the 2011-2015 campaigns. He fell off after that, but so did the rest of the team. We always knew this, too. Dalton needed a talented roster to produce. Once that talent started dipping, he wasn't able to compensate.

This, Andy Dalton was a good starter in the NFL no question IMHO.

And still is, would love to have him as a backup here, he would be the best we could get.

(10-17-2022, 06:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly. He was a solid QB but not good enough to elevate a bad roster. After the beatings he took and switching coordinators every year for roughly 7 years straight, I don't think he's the same guy he was at 25 that he is at 35.

That said, I can't stand the hyperbole. He wasn't a backup. He didn't suck. Also, most years he was here, we weren't really in good spots to take a QB anyway. Not that every QB in the draft is Joe Burrow.

2016 - they could have taken Dak, but I’m not going to kill them for not finding a 4th round gem. Plus, Andy was coming off a really good season.

2017 - they could have taken Mahomes or Watson, but I’m glad we didn’t end up with the latter. I had my issues with Andy towards the end, but I never had to feel ashamed to root for him.

2018 - they could have taken Lamar. That one kind of stung for a while until we got Burrow.

2019 - there was really no one we could have had barring trading up for Allen or something.

So really I’d say the only argument that we should have pulled the trigger on Andy’s replacement sooner was for Mahomes or Lamar.

(10-17-2022, 03:47 PM)ATOTR Wrote: So, he is a Steelers fan because he doesnt think Andy Dalton was very good in Cincy.   Makes sense. 

Of course not.  He's a Steelers fan because he roots for the Steelers.

(10-17-2022, 06:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Also, most years he was here, we weren't really in good spots to take a QB anyway. Not that every QB in the draft is Joe Burrow.

Really?? The Bengals picked 9th in the 2017 draft and took John Ross and who was the next pick after that? Patrick Mahomes taken at #10 by KC.

(10-17-2022, 03:46 PM)ATOTR Wrote: I already did,  but here ya go again. 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2022/1/14/22883546/adam-pacman-jones-upgrading-from-andy-dalton-to-joe-burrow-is-why-these-bengals-are-different

Funny coming from a player, that cost us a chance of winning a playoff game by being a jackass......BTW Dalton had us to 8-0 that year before breaking his thumb

(10-17-2022, 10:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 2016 - they could have taken Dak, but I’m not going to kill them for not finding a 4th round gem. Plus, Andy was coming off a really good season.

2017 - they could have taken Mahomes or Watson, but I’m glad we didn’t end up with the latter. I had my issues with Andy towards the end, but I never had to feel ashamed to root for him.

2018 - they could have taken Lamar. That one kind of stung for a while until we got Burrow.

2019 - there was really no one we could have had barring trading up for Allen or something.

So really I’d say the only argument that we should have pulled the trigger on Andy’s replacement sooner was for Mahomes or Lamar.

LOL, I said we should take Lamar in 2018 and let him sit for a year or two behind Dalton and was called a Cardinal homer.

(10-17-2022, 10:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 2016 - they could have taken Dak, but I’m not going to kill them for not finding a 4th round gem. Plus, Andy was coming off a really good season.

2017 - they could have taken Mahomes or Watson, but I’m glad we didn’t end up with the latter. I had my issues with Andy towards the end, but I never had to feel ashamed to root for him.

2018 - they could have taken Lamar. That one kind of stung for a while until we got Burrow.

2019 - there was really no one we could have had barring trading up for Allen or something.

So really I’d say the only argument that we should have pulled the trigger on Andy’s replacement sooner was for Mahomes or Lamar.

I like the way it all turned out...

(10-17-2022, 10:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 2016 - they could have taken Dak, but I’m not going to kill them for not finding a 4th round gem. Plus, Andy was coming off a really good season.

2017 - they could have taken Mahomes or Watson, but I’m glad we didn’t end up with the latter. I had my issues with Andy towards the end, but I never had to feel ashamed to root for him.

2018 - they could have taken Lamar. That one kind of stung for a while until we got Burrow.

2019 - there was really no one we could have had barring trading up for Allen or something.

So really I’d say the only argument that we should have pulled the trigger on Andy’s replacement sooner was for Mahomes or Lamar.

I'm very happy we didn't. But I'm with you. I got burnt out on Andy the last couple seasons.

(10-17-2022, 06:51 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Easy- they won one playoff game and then Carson proceeded to throw 5 picks the next game or something outrageous.

Yeah.....but he couldn't even win one here....and the one they did win was a thriller against a good Green Bay team. If that was a Marvin Lewis team, they would've curled up in the fetal position and gotten wolloped. He did serve up the turnovers in the championship game.

Marvin lost with Carson Palmer, Andy Dalton, and everyone's superhero, AJ McCarron. They literally snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in 2015 because of a strong lack of discipline and mental toughness. There's a pattern there, regardless of the personnel.....and Palmer was aging and injured in Arizona. 

(10-17-2022, 10:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 2016 - they could have taken Dak, but I’m not going to kill them for not finding a 4th round gem. Plus, Andy was coming off a really good season.

2017 - they could have taken Mahomes or Watson, but I’m glad we didn’t end up with the latter. I had my issues with Andy towards the end, but I never had to feel ashamed to root for him.

2018 - they could have taken Lamar. That one kind of stung for a while until we got Burrow.

2019 - there was really no one we could have had barring trading up for Allen or something.

So really I’d say the only argument that we should have pulled the trigger on Andy’s replacement sooner was for Mahomes or Lamar.

But we got John Ross in 2017, so.......

(10-18-2022, 09:53 AM)Wyche Wrote: But we got John Ross in 2017, so.......

He's still technically a rookie ya know....just saying