(11-18-2022, 11:03 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: It's hard to scheme guys open when teams sit in two high safety looks or play Tampa two the entire game. 

Like I get it, I don't think ZT is an offensive mastermind when it comes to play design...but it's hard to pass 50 times a game when no team respects your running game and completely sells out to stop the pass.

Yep and when teams can defend your running game with just 5-6 defenders at most even the short stuff gets defended.Teams salivate if they're able to keep everything in front of them when they play the Bengals. First off, no defender has to be assigned to Burrow as he is hardly ever going to run and, also, they very rarely ever get Burrow out of the pocket so everything is in front of the defenders.

Getting Mixon in rhythm and getting 4-5 ypc and especially on 1st down make the D bring a defender(s) up in the box which makes the 2 high S a thing of the past.

(11-17-2022, 02:47 PM)impactplaya Wrote: While Iam encouraged by Burrows ball distribution in his last game, it's time for Tee Higgins to make a example
Of the Steelers secondary..
He is due for a 100 yd plus game. He hasn't has one since
The Dolphins game. He needs to show he can take
Over a game without Jamar Chase on the other side.
If Tee wants to prove he is a top 12 WR, no better time
Than vs the Steelers. Who BTW knocked out him
Out with a cheap shot game 1.

Here are my monsters for the week:  I think these guys literally hate the steelers like so many of us do, and they usually have big games against them:

Sam Hubbard-  WIll help set the edge and get at least one sack.  Hopefully, a sack-fumble. 

Joe Mixon-  I think he liked how last week feel, and I believe the steelers won't challenge the Bengals run game and will stay in two deep.  Make them pay, Joe.

Trey Hendrickson-  Feeds off the energy of the line as a whole, and with Reader and Sam fired up, we might see "Black Out Trey".

Jessie Bates-  The holdout didn't do him many favors, but I could see Jesse trying to make a statement this game.  Much like Fitzpatrick did the first game.  I know Jessie isn't that close-to-the-los guy that Fitz can be, but I could see a pick...or maybe two.

La'El Collins and Alex Kappa.  If o-linemen be elephants, elephants never forget.  I'm sure they remember that week 1 game, and will be looking forward to some of those double team sets where Collins peels off and heads to the next level. 

Hayden Hurst- Not sure why, but cold-weather game screams ginger viking.  Hope he breaks a few big ones. 

(11-17-2022, 02:47 PM)impactplaya Wrote: While Iam encouraged by Burrows ball distribution in his last game, it's time for Tee Higgins to make a example
Of the Steelers secondary..
He is due for a 100 yd plus game. He hasn't has one since
The Dolphins game. He needs to show he can take
Over a game without Jamar Chase on the other side.
If Tee wants to prove he is a top 12 WR, no better time
Than vs the Steelers. Who BTW knocked out him
Out with a cheap shot game 1.

BTW, I could see a bounty on Tee's head (literally) because if they knock him out of the game, it is a very different offense.  Maybe they should have listened on #4 WR earlier?  Hope they miss (Tee's head) but they will ALWAYS take a 15 yard penalty and even a fine to **** another team.  

(11-17-2022, 05:46 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I think Tee is limited. I don't think he has the speed/athleticism to be a true number 1. 

Again, he's good and his best attribute is his body/physicalness...but I just think he's missing that athletic/speed attribute that puts him over the top. 

Cooper Kupp 4.62 
Tee Higgins 4.54

See, the Bengals as an organization got yall fools exactly where they want you...they got yall believing that speed over scheme, yet, we on here every week complaining about the Bengal's lack of scheme!

This is the same organization that watched Boyd serve as the #1 a couple years and put up 1000 yard seasons - yet for some reason in Cincinnati, the team and fans that don't believe in scheming, we've accepted the idea that a guy has to run like John Ross to be a number 1..yall pitiful on here sometimes!

(11-18-2022, 11:03 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: It's hard to scheme guys open when teams sit in two high safety looks or play Tampa two the entire game. 

Like I get it, I don't think ZT is an offensive mastermind when it comes to play design...but it's hard to pass 50 times a game when no team respects your running game and completely sells out to stop the pass.

Yep when teams were getting pressure with just their front 4 the defensive backfield gets cluttered quickly and the two high safeties make the deep throws much harder to achieve. 

Got to keep this running game going to take teams out of this defense and bring back more HR's throws for Joe. 

(11-18-2022, 12:37 PM)mhbsavant Wrote: Cooper Kupp 4.62 
Tee Higgins 4.54

See, the Bengals as an organization got yall fools exactly where they want you...they got yall believing that speed over scheme, yet, we on here every week complaining about the Bengal's lack of scheme!

This is the same organization that watched Boyd serve as the #1 a couple years and put up 1000 yard seasons - yet for some reason in Cincinnati, the team and fans that don't believe in scheming, we've accepted the idea that a guy has to run like John Ross to be a number 1..yall pitiful on here sometimes!

Kupp is an outlier.

Justin Jefferson 4.44
Ja’Marr Chase 4.38
Stefon Diggs 4.46
Tyreek Hill 4.29
AJ Brown 4.49

(11-18-2022, 12:37 PM)mhbsavant Wrote: Cooper Kupp 4.62 
Tee Higgins 4.54

See, the Bengals as an organization got yall fools exactly where they want you...they got yall believing that speed over scheme, yet, we on here every week complaining about the Bengal's lack of scheme!

This is the same organization that watched Boyd serve as the #1 a couple years and put up 1000 yard seasons - yet for some reason in Cincinnati, the team and fans that don't believe in scheming, we've accepted the idea that a guy has to run like John Ross to be a number 1..yall pitiful on here sometimes!

I dont understand what point you are trying to make.  

(11-18-2022, 12:47 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Kupp is an outlier.

Justin Jefferson 4.44
Ja’Marr Chase 4.38
Stefon Diggs 4.46
Tyreek Hill 4.29
AJ Brown 4.49

Kupp is also one of the best route runners of all time. 

(11-18-2022, 11:27 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Here are my monsters for the week:  I think these guys literally hate the steelers like so many of us do, and they usually have big games against them:

Sam Hubbard-  WIll help set the edge and get at least one sack.  Hopefully, a sack-fumble. 

Joe Mixon-  I think he liked how last week feel, and I believe the steelers won't challenge the Bengals run game and will stay in two deep.  Make them pay, Joe.

Trey Hendrickson-  Feeds off the energy of the line as a whole, and with Reader and Sam fired up, we might see "Black Out Trey".

Jessie Bates-  The holdout didn't do him many favors, but I could see Jesse trying to make a statement this game.  Much like Fitzpatrick did the first game.  I know Jessie isn't that close-to-the-los guy that Fitz can be, but I could see a pick...or maybe two.

La'El Collins and Alex Kappa.  If o-linemen be elephants, elephants never forget.  I'm sure they remember that week 1 game, and will be looking forward to some of those double team sets where Collins peels off and heads to the next level. 

Hayden Hurst- Not sure why, but cold-weather game screams ginger viking.  Hope he breaks a few big ones. 

Overlooked 9 games in I think maybe our collectively our CBs have maybe 1 INT between them.
This would be a great time for our secondary to play 
Takeaway with a struggling Steelers offense.
Love to see Hilton repeat last year and get a pick 6.
Never the less this secondary is due for some timely INTs

Hasn't Boyd had a couple big games vs. Squeelers ?

(11-18-2022, 01:05 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I dont understand what point you are trying to make.  

I'm making a point that Tee Higgins can be just as much as a number one receiver as Kupp is for the Rams, under a team that actually has a scheme, regardless of his speed!

Just like Boyd did
and AJ Green who ran a 4.5

Straightline speed has nothing to do with your ability to be a number one receiver

(11-18-2022, 02:05 PM)mhbsavant Wrote: I'm making a point that Tee Higgins can be just as much as a number one receiver as Kupp is for the Rams, under a team that actually has a scheme, regardless of his speed!

Just like Boyd did
and AJ Green who ran a 4.5

Straightline speed has nothing to do with your ability to be a number one receiver

Higgins lack of ability to produce as much when he's been the #1 receiver is the reason people think he's a low end #1 or high end #2. Some of those reasons are his athleticism. 

Boyd is a #2 and no one thinks of him as a #1. AJ put up better stats as the #1. Tee has faced single coverage most his career and put up good #2 numbers. When he's doubled he's mostly shut down or limited.

He hasn't shown the ability to take a 5-10 yard pass and take it for a TD like the top #1s do. If he's your top receiver, based on what he's shown so far in his career, you'll at best have an okay WR room but not great.

(11-18-2022, 02:18 PM)TheFan Wrote: Higgins lack of ability to produce as much when he's been the #1 receiver is the reason people think he's a low end #1 or high end #2. Some of those reasons are his athleticism. 

Boyd is a #2 and no one thinks of him as a #1. AJ put up better stats as the #1. Tee has faced single coverage most his career and put up good #2 numbers. When he's doubled he's mostly shut down. 

He hasn't shown the ability to take a 5-10 yard pass and take it for a TD like the top #1s do. 

Sat what?

(11-18-2022, 02:27 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Sat what?

Why bring Tyler Boyd into a Tee Higgins debate? Lol Also neither of those were 5-10 yard passes...? 

(11-18-2022, 03:37 PM)TheFan Wrote: Why bring Tyler Boyd into a Tee Higgins debate? Lol Also neither of those were 5-10 yard passes...? 

9 yards.

Hopefully also we go back to using slants in the pass game - when we did it the offense was much more effective.

(11-18-2022, 02:18 PM)TheFan Wrote: He hasn't shown the ability to take a 5-10 yard pass and take it for a TD like the top #1s do. 

I know you're getting picked on a little bit, but I have always thought this is a flawed way identifying a #1. I know, I know, you're not only using this, but this comes up a lot in conversations like this and it doesn't hold up very well. Time and time again, folks will say that a top #1 is able to do this but it is pretty damn rare.  I guess you'll get the flaming arrow. Since 2016, the year Boyd was drafted, he has one touchdown where he the ball traveled between 5-10 yards in the air and the TD ended up being greater than 20 yards. It was the 56 yard TD posted earlier. Overall, there have been 89 touchdowns like this on 131,720 pass attempts (0.067568%). Over that same time span, only five players have more than two TDs using that same criteria.

1. Antonio Brown (bonafide #1)
2. Odell Beckham (Bonafide #1)
3. Dawson Knox (Meh TE)
4. Golden Tate (Decent receiver, nothing special)
5. Julian Edelman (Good receiver).
   

Tyler Boyd has the same amount of such TDs as A.J. Green, D.K. Metcalf, and Deebo Samuel while having more such TDs than Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones, Davante Adams, Hopkins, Cooper Kupp, and several others that would be considered top guys. Touchdowns in this manner are incredibly rare and aren't a good indicator of whether a guy is a #1 or not. 

(11-18-2022, 04:12 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I know you're getting picked on a little bit, but I have always thought this is a flawed way identifying a #1. I know, I know, you're not only using this, but this comes up a lot in conversations like this and it doesn't hold up very well. Time and time again, folks will say that a top #1 is able to do this but it is pretty damn rare.  I guess you'll get the flaming arrow. Since 2016, the year Boyd was drafted, he has one touchdown where he the ball traveled between 5-10 yards in the air and the TD ended up being greater than 20 yards. It was the 56 yard TD posted earlier. Overall, there have been 89 touchdowns like this on 131,720 pass attempts (0.067568%). Over that same time span, only five players have more than two TDs using that same criteria.

1. Antonio Brown (bonafide #1)
2. Odell Beckham (Bonafide #1)
3. Dawson Knox (Meh TE)
4. Golden Tate (Decent receiver, nothing special)
5. Julian Edelman (Good receiver).
   

Tyler Boyd has the same amount of such TDs as A.J. Green, D.K. Metcalf, and Deebo Samuel while having more such TDs than Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones, Davante Adams, Hopkins, Cooper Kupp, and several others that would be considered top guys. Touchdowns in this manner are incredibly rare and aren't a good indicator of whether a guy is a #1 or not. 

Yeah - seems like a weird bar to set deciding if a guy is a number 1 receiver or not. 

For me it all comes down to a receivers' ability to get separation and their ability to catch contested balls. 

I think Tee does a good job at high pointing and catching contested balls for explosives (at times, still a little inconsistent), but I do think he lacks in getting constant separation throughout the game at times. 

We do have to remember that the guy is still only like 23 (I think) - so he does still have time to polish his game to a degree. 

(11-18-2022, 04:12 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I know you're getting picked on a little bit, but I have always thought this is a flawed way identifying a #1. I know, I know, you're not only using this, but this comes up a lot in conversations like this and it doesn't hold up very well. Time and time again, folks will say that a top #1 is able to do this but it is pretty damn rare.  I guess you'll get the flaming arrow. Since 2016, the year Boyd was drafted, he has one touchdown where he the ball traveled between 5-10 yards in the air and the TD ended up being greater than 20 yards. It was the 56 yard TD posted earlier. Overall, there have been 89 touchdowns like this on 131,720 pass attempts (0.067568%). Over that same time span, only five players have more than two TDs using that same criteria.

1. Antonio Brown (bonafide #1)
2. Odell Beckham (Bonafide #1)
3. Dawson Knox (Meh TE)
4. Golden Tate (Decent receiver, nothing special)
5. Julian Edelman (Good receiver).
   

Tyler Boyd has the same amount of such TDs as A.J. Green, D.K. Metcalf, and Deebo Samuel while having more such TDs than Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones, Davante Adams, Hopkins, Cooper Kupp, and several others that would be considered top guys. Touchdowns in this manner are incredibly rare and aren't a good indicator of whether a guy is a #1 or not. 

I'm honestly confused why people keep bringing up Tyler Boyd. The conversation is about Higgins being a bonafide #1 dude like some were saying vs him being a low end #1 or high end #2. 

Saying taking it for a TD may have been a bit hyperbolic but there's a clear difference between Jefferson, Hill, Chase, Jones (in his prime), and Adam's in space/YAC compared to what we've seen Higgins do so far in his career. 

I see Tee as more of a Mike Williams type player and not Julio Jones. Hopefully (if he signs again with us) I'm very wrong. 

(11-18-2022, 05:35 PM)TheFan Wrote: I'm honestly confused why people keep bringing up Tyler Boyd. The conversation is about Higgins being a bonafide #1 dude like some were saying vs him being a low end #1 or high end #2. 

Saying taking it for a TD may have been a bit hyperbolic but there's a clear difference between Jefferson, Hill, Chase, Jones (in his prime), and Adam's in space/YAC compared to what we've seen Higgins do so far in his career. 

I see Tee as more of a Mike Williams type player and not Julio Jones. Hopefully (if he signs again with us) I'm very wrong. 

Genuine misread on mine and several others part it looks like. You mentioned Boyd being a #2 how no one views him as a #1. Then, you went back to Tee. I must have skipped over that part and just read your final sentence, where you said he can’t take it all the way etc.

I’m assuming that’s what others are doing, too. My bad.

In regards to Tee, it depends. I don't know what you mean by space, but perhaps separation? If so, that's really only relevant when analyzing man coverage. It becomes less important in zone due to how zone coverages operate. However, in regard to YAC...no, not really. Last year, Tee Higgins was 12th in YAC per reception among receivers with 100+ targets. He actually averaged more YAC per catch than Tyreek Hill and Jefferson. He was slightly below Davante Adams. This year he is 24th in the league, but still neck-and-neck with Tyreek Hill. YAC is up across the league, overall. In his rookie season, he was 15th. He has averaged roughly the same YAC/catch each season (4.5, 4.6, 4.1) so we have a pretty good idea of what type of player he will be there. 

Identifying a top guy can be tough but it is really just about production. Guys can be great at beating man coverage but not a top guy, or great at YAC and not be a top guy. Tee was producing like a top guy last season but has taken a dip this year.