I'm no coach, never played organized football, so I'm just guessing from watching TV, but I think one of Burrow's (and Daltons' back in the day) strengths leads to a lot of the tipped passes. I saw an article in the Athletic this week about how much Burrow has improved since the first two games of the year. He's basically top 3-4 or better in every efficiency metric from week 3 on. One of the stats was how long until he throws the ball. Very quick, something like 2.5 seconds. I don't recall the exact number, but the point is it is very fast, relative to league. Dalton always ranked fast in this, too. Dalton was not nearly the QB that Burrow is but they both get high praise for pre-snap reads and getting the ball out fast to beat the pass rush.

Here is where that hurts: such a quick release where you always throw at 2.5 seconds really is a tempo or rhythm throw and elite defenders can time that rhythm. One Mississippi, two Mississippi, jump! The Bengals rarely if ever roll Burrow out intentionally. Therefore, he's in shotgun 90+% of time, throwing on same rhythm from the same spot. I'm not shocked that the best players can feel this, watch his eyes, and time it. They miss a lot, but they always know when and from what spot he's throwing the ball. So, they get some. Too many. My humble suggestion: some designed pocket movement.

Pump-fakes..... make the big men dance.

I think he hasn't incorporated pump fakes yet because he may not have time in the pocket to, lol

I was wondering about that during the game myself. Just out of curiosity, I looked up who has the most passes batted down so far this year.

#1 is Justin Herbert with 16
#2 is Josh Allen with 14
#3 is Joe Burrow with 13

It's up to the offensive linemen to make the defensive linemen not want to reach up to tip a pass.

(11-21-2022, 03:56 AM)BRM13 Wrote: I'm no coach, never played organized football, so I'm just guessing from watching TV, but I think one of Burrow's (and Daltons' back in the day) strengths leads to a lot of the tipped passes.  I saw an article in the Athletic this week about how much Burrow has improved since the first two games of the year.  He's basically top 3-4 or better in every efficiency metric from week 3 on.  One of the stats was how long until he throws the ball.  Very quick, something like 2.5 seconds.  I don't recall the exact number, but the point is it is very fast, relative to league.  Dalton always ranked fast in this, too.  Dalton was not nearly the QB that Burrow is but they both get high praise for pre-snap reads and getting the ball out fast to beat the pass rush.

Here is where that hurts:  such a quick release where you always throw at 2.5 seconds really is a tempo or rhythm throw and elite defenders can time that rhythm.  One Mississippi, two  Mississippi, jump!  The Bengals rarely if ever roll Burrow out intentionally.  Therefore, he's in shotgun 90+% of time, throwing on same rhythm from the same spot.  I'm not shocked that the best players can feel this, watch his eyes, and time it.  They miss a lot, but they always know when and from what spot he's throwing the ball.  So, they get some.  Too many.  My humble suggestion:  some designed pocket movement.

Well, not having Chase back there is almost like missing a great cover CB that takes 1/3 to 1/2 the field away. No question that JB was looking hard for Tee the entire game and the DL mirrors the eye movement of JB. Add in that the Steelers have an excellent DL with pro bowlers and are very smart. Bring Chase back and JB will look off receivers and go thru more reads.

(11-21-2022, 09:01 AM)Sled21 Wrote: It's up to the offensive linemen to make the defensive linemen not want to reach up to tip a pass.

What he said. If a DL jumps to try and tip a pass, the OL is supposed to unload on them where the sun dont shine. 

(11-21-2022, 07:55 AM)No-huddle Joe Wrote: I was wondering about that during the game myself.  Just out of curiosity, I looked up who has the most passes batted down so far this year.

#1 is Justin Herbert with 16
#2 is Josh Allen with 14
#3 is Joe Burrow with 13

Isn't Herbert like 8 feet tall? How's he getting passes tipped at the line?

(11-21-2022, 10:43 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Isn't Herbert like 8 feet tall? How's he getting passes tipped at the line?

Herber throws like he's 6'2. He doesn't have a high release. On the other side, some 6'2 qb's throw like they are 6'4 due to their release point. Burrow doesn't get his throws up and over the line, he throws through passing lanes which gets him in trouble. 

(11-21-2022, 09:01 AM)Sled21 Wrote: It's up to the offensive linemen to make the defensive linemen not want to reach up to tip a pass.

This is a lot of it, no question, but you can't submarine them like you could back in the day to get their hands down. 

Pocket movement and rollouts are another way to help, but the pump fake is something we need more of.

I think he needs to drop back another step or two.

(11-21-2022, 03:56 AM)BRM13 Wrote: I'm no coach, never played organized football, so I'm just guessing from watching TV, but I think one of Burrow's (and Daltons' back in the day) strengths leads to a lot of the tipped passes.  I saw an article in the Athletic this week about how much Burrow has improved since the first two games of the year.  He's basically top 3-4 or better in every efficiency metric from week 3 on.  One of the stats was how long until he throws the ball.  Very quick, something like 2.5 seconds.  I don't recall the exact number, but the point is it is very fast, relative to league.  Dalton always ranked fast in this, too.  Dalton was not nearly the QB that Burrow is but they both get high praise for pre-snap reads and getting the ball out fast to beat the pass rush.

Here is where that hurts:  such a quick release where you always throw at 2.5 seconds really is a tempo or rhythm throw and elite defenders can time that rhythm.  One Mississippi, two  Mississippi, jump!  The Bengals rarely if ever roll Burrow out intentionally.  Therefore, he's in shotgun 90+% of time, throwing on same rhythm from the same spot.  I'm not shocked that the best players can feel this, watch his eyes, and time it.  They miss a lot, but they always know when and from what spot he's throwing the ball.  So, they get some.  Too many.  My humble suggestion:  some designed pocket movement.

All true, and the offensive line retreats so much before even contact with the defensive line that it makes for a really tight pocket.  Pump fakes, moving pockets, yes..that would all be nice to see more of, but protection and not so much initial retreat (could be combined with Burrow getting a deeper drop, even on shorter down and distances) would be a big help.  He would have next to no INTs if not for tipped or batted passes since week 2.  

(11-21-2022, 10:47 AM)jj22 Wrote: Herber throws like he's 6'2. He doesn't have a high release. On the other side, some 6'2 qb's throw like they are 6'4 due to their release point. Burrow doesn't get his throws up and over the line, he throws through passing lanes which gets him in trouble. 

Yep, and a tipped ball lead to an INT that cost them last night's game.  He played very well, but KC is the most overrated defense in the league.  

(11-21-2022, 10:41 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: What he said. If a DL jumps to try and tip a pass, the OL is supposed to unload on them where the sun dont shine. 

It's definitely a technique.  If the DLman realizes that he's blocked and likely not going to reach the QB, they just take a position one yard off the LOS and play jump ball.  In the NFL OL are not allowed to be more than 1 yard past the LOS on passing plays.

As far as a remedy?  I would suggest the good 'ole pump fake should do the job.

(11-21-2022, 07:55 AM)No-huddle Joe Wrote: I was wondering about that during the game myself.  Just out of curiosity, I looked up who has the most passes batted down so far this year.

#1 is Justin Herbert with 16
#2 is Josh Allen with 14
#3 is Joe Burrow with 13

Interesting list.  All QBs with a deep threat reputation facing a lot of deep coverage.  That's probably forcing a lot of short passes that are vulnerable to getting tipped.

(11-21-2022, 10:41 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: What he said. If a DL jumps to try and tip a pass, the OL is supposed to unload on them where the sun dont shine. 

That's what I wanted to see all week.  I wanted to see Collins put Watt on his back every time he tried that shit.  He was doing just that and Watt still reached up and snatched the pass.  All you can do is shake your head at that.  

Credit to Collins, Watt's stat line was only slightly worse than week 1 but it felt like Watt had a lot less impact.

(11-21-2022, 12:49 PM)Roland Wrote: Interesting list.  All QBs with a deep threat reputation facing a lot of deep coverage.  That's probably forcing a lot of short passes that are vulnerable to getting tipped.


That's what I wanted to see all week.  I wanted to see Collins put Watt on his back every time he tried that shit.  He was doing just that and Watt still reached up and snatched the pass.  All you can do is shake your head at that.  

Credit to Collins, Watt's stat line was only slightly worse than week 1 but it felt like Watt had a lot less impact.

Collins had Watt on that play and the Twat still made the play. As much as I despise him, he is one elite DE. 

(11-21-2022, 11:31 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yep, and a tipped ball lead to an INT that cost them last night's game.  He played very well, but KC is the most overrated defense in the league.  

And he had another tipped ball last night that he ended up catching himself.

(11-21-2022, 12:52 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Collins had Watt on that play and the Twat still made the play. As much as I despise him, he is one elite DE. 

Yes he is.

(11-21-2022, 06:25 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: I think he hasn't incorporated pump fakes yet because he may not have time in the pocket to, lol

Oh no...dare we dig up the "small hands" debate from the off-season prior to drafting Burrow?

(11-21-2022, 10:52 AM)Goalpost Wrote: I think he needs to drop back another step or two.

I agree with this... when you watch Mahomes it seems like his drop is further back.

I'm sure it's a timing mechanism so any chances will need to be adopted in the off season.  But I doubt it changes.