(12-06-2022, 04:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I refuse to accept a 4th down play before the half where Trent Taylor is your answer. Yes. Take the 3 and go up by 7, or if you absolutely refuse to take the points, at least use a good player.

Well, it was an audible, so evidently Joe Brrr thought he could get it done. Again, Dunlap just made a good play. This team trusts each other.

(12-06-2022, 07:53 PM)Nepa Wrote: You have no way of knowing what would have happened if the Bengals took the 3 points. The Chiefs still had 51 seconds to go down and score their own field goal. Or touchdown.

You don't take the 3 points when its 4th and inches at the KC 4. You just don't. Not against KC.

And Andy Reid knew you don't take the 3 points when facing the Bengals. He went for it on 4th and goal from the Bengals 3.

Absolutely. If you're playing these boys, you better be aggressive. Now, if we were playing a team like TN, I'd probably take the points, but playing a squad like this that can score easily on one play, I'm gambling. 

This staff is gonna take heat for every little thing that doesn't go 100% correct on here, and that's the way it will likely remain. I know faulk hates the crow analogy, but there are just some who refuse to eat it. 

The worst are the ones who only show up after a loss, lol. 

(12-06-2022, 07:51 PM)Wyche Wrote: Why? It was a calculated risk. 9/10, that DE crashes down with everyone else. 

Even if that's true, then MAYBE 4.6-something Trent Taylor gets the edge before someone else on the defense does.


McPherson with an actual longsnapper instead of Wilcox makes that FG 99/100 times.

(12-06-2022, 07:53 PM)Nepa Wrote: You have no way of knowing what would have happened if the Bengals took the 3 points. The Chiefs still had 51 seconds to go down and score their own field goal. Or touchdown.

You don't take the 3 points when its 4th and inches at the KC 4. You just don't. Not against KC.

And Andy Reid knew you don't take the 3 points when facing the Bengals. He went for it on 4th and goal from the Bengals 3.

They had 49 seconds to do down and score a field gold or touchdown regardless, and they didn't. The only difference is the Bengals didn't get 3 points.

What you don't do against KC is pass up points. Can't turn 3 points into 0.

The Chiefs are 8/10 on 4th down this year, best in the NFL. 
The Bengals are 2/10 on 4th down this year, worst in the NFL.

(12-06-2022, 08:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Even if that's true, then MAYBE 4.6-something Trent Taylor gets the edge before someone else on the defense does.


McPherson with an actual longsnapper instead of Wilcox makes that FG 99/100 times.

It's pretty true, lol. Dlinemen usually crash down in that situation. We took a risk, so did Dunlap. His risk paid off. Imagine if he shot straight up field like that, and we waltzed in the end zone off tackle and just rode Carlos out of the play? That's why they typically crash.

Anyway, it was an audible, so I trust that Burrow saw something he liked. It just didn't work.

(12-06-2022, 08:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Even if that's true, then MAYBE 4.6-something Trent Taylor gets the edge before someone else on the defense does.


McPherson with an actual longsnapper instead of Wilcox makes that FG 99/100 times.


They had 49 seconds to do down and score a field gold or touchdown regardless, and they didn't. The only difference is the Bengals didn't get 3 points.

What you don't do against KC is pass up points. Can't turn 3 points into 0.

The Chiefs are 8/10 on 4th down this year, best in the NFL. 
The Bengals are 2/10 on 4th down this year, worst in the NFL.

4.6 something Taylor DID get a nice 2PAT in the postseason by beating the defense outside with the element of surprise.....which was probably what Burrow was thinking here. 

(12-06-2022, 08:36 PM)Wyche Wrote: 4.6 something Taylor DID get a nice 2PAT in the postseason by beating the defense outside with the element of surprise.....which was probably what Burrow was thinking here. 

Throwing it to a wide open guy that nobody is paying attention to is not the same as having that same guy start carrying the ball 4 yards behind the LoS, behind the OL, with everyone paying attention to him.

(12-06-2022, 08:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Throwing it to a wide open guy that nobody is paying attention to is not the same as having that same guy start carrying the ball 4 yards behind the LoS, behind the OL, with everyone paying attention to him.

So Trent Taylor is an Offensive weapon that "everyone" pays attention to?

Seems you weren't so impressed with his football acumen earlier in the thread. 

The call didn't work; that is all. 

What were your thoughts on throwing in on 3rd and 11 at the end of the game?

Would they be the same if KC would have picked it and returned for 6?

How about we play it safe and run it on 3rd and 11 and take the FG to go up by 6?

Would it be the same if KC drove for a game-winning TD at the end?

Credit to the OP for finally understanding Zac is better at calling NFL games than him, but everyone is not there yet. 

There are going to be some that will never give Taylor and this staff any due until the world recognizes they are as good as the ‘62 Packers or ‘85 Bears and it just makes them look like dunderheads. It’s okay this staff did not win the Super Bowl and sure aren’t back there yet. But they are reaching heights never seen by this franchise in 50 years.

On the current win streak...

Burrow's passing plays have the highest EPA/play in the NFL in this stretch, the 2nd highest success rate

Bengals running plays have the 2nd best EPA/play in the NFL, and 2nd best rushing success rate

This offense is on an absolute heater

(12-06-2022, 08:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So Trent Taylor is an Offensive weapon that "everyone" pays attention to?

Seems you weren't so impressed with his football acumen earlier in the thread. 

The call didn't work; that is all. 

What were your thoughts on throwing in on 3rd and 11 at the end of the game?

Would they be the same if KC would have picked it and returned for 6?

How about we play it safe and run it on 3rd and 11 and take the FG to go up by 6?

Would it be the same if KC drove for a game-winning TD at the end?

Credit to the OP for finally understanding Zac is better at calling NFL games than him, but everyone is not there yet. 

Yes, when he gets the handoff behind the LoS, they are paying attention to him. That's the difference between being a ball carrier and getting to get lost in coverage behind Chase in the endzone.

(12-06-2022, 09:03 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yes, when he gets the handoff behind the LoS, they are paying attention to him. That's the difference between being a ball carrier and getting to get lost in coverage behind Chase in the endzone.

Then why didn't everyone chase him? Here's why: because everyone wasn't paying attention to him. But your opinion on the effect Trent Taylor has by going in motion is quite a compliment to Trent.

The best part of the play is that we chose (I say we because IDK if JB audibled to it, but you "know" Zac called it because) Taylor to be the motion man. If we'd chosen JaMarr then more (not everyone as you suggested was paying attention to Taylor) would have taken notice.

With the way Samajie was running, with the down and distance, 99.9% of folks that watched Trent Taylor go into motion were thinking we were doing that to loosen up the interior. 

(12-06-2022, 09:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Then why didn't everyone chase him? Here's why: because everyone wasn't paying attention to him. But your opinion on the effect Trent Taylor has by going in motion is quite a compliment to Trent.

The best part of the play is that we chose (I say we because IDK if JB audibled to it, but you "know" Zac called it because) Taylor to be the motion man. If we'd chosen JaMarr then more (not everyone as you suggested was paying attention to Taylor) would have taken notice.

With the way Samajie was running, with the down and distance, 99.9% of folks that watched Trent Taylor go into motion were thinking we were doing that to loosen up the interior. 

Because they still have their assignments and Dunlap blew it up 4 yards behind the LoS before anyone else could.

It isn't even just Trent. Ja'Marr Chase has 4 carries for 2 yards this year. Being a ball carrier is different. That play doesn't go well for the Bengals.

Bengals WRs have 9 carries this year for 1 first down. The Bengals are 2/10 on 4th down this year, worst in the NFL.

You keep acting like this is some magical gotcha moment, it isn't. Take the 3. Have a good night bfine.

(12-06-2022, 08:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Throwing it to a wide open guy that nobody is paying attention to is not the same as having that same guy start carrying the ball 4 yards behind the LoS, behind the OL, with everyone paying attention to him.

I will say I didn't love the call in real time. However, after hearing about it in the pressers, and when Romo pointed out that Dunlap just made a good play, I understood the logic behind it. Trent could just as easily been a decoy....window dressing, if you will. I'm not certain they were actually paying attention to him as much as Los was just right place, right time.

(12-06-2022, 09:00 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: There are going to be some that will never give Taylor and this staff any due until the world recognizes they are as good as the ‘62 Packers or ‘85 Bears and it just makes them look like dunderheads. It’s okay this staff did not win the Super Bowl and sure aren’t back there yet. But they are reaching heights never seen by this franchise in 50 years.

On the current win streak...

Burrow's passing plays have the highest EPA/play in the NFL in this stretch, the 2nd highest success rate

Bengals running plays have the 2nd best EPA/play in the NFL, and 2nd best rushing success rate

This offense is on an absolute heater

You gotta give 'em an A for effort. 

(12-06-2022, 09:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Because they still have their assignments and Dunlap blew it up 4 yards behind the LoS before anyone else could.

It isn't even just Trent. Ja'Marr Chase has 4 carries for 2 yards this year. Being a ball carrier is different. That play doesn't go well for the Bengals.

Bengals WRs have 9 carries this year for 1 first down. The Bengals are 2/10 on 4th down this year, worst in the NFL.

You keep acting like this is some magical gotcha moment, it isn't. Take the 3. Have a good night bfine.

All of that's a pretty good argument to not use the WR on a run. However, I'm good with going for six against the Chiefs. 

(12-06-2022, 09:20 PM)Wyche Wrote: I will say I didn't love the call in real time. However, after hearing about it in the pressers, and when Romo pointed out that Dunlap just made a good play, I understood the logic behind it. Trent could just as easily been a decoy....window dressing, if you will. I'm not certain they were actually paying attention to him as much as Los was just right place, right time.

Nope, on a field that had Joe Burrow, Jamarr Chase, Tyler Boyd, and Samajie Perine on it; "everyone" was paying attention to Trent Taylor going in motion. 

Hell, I didn't love the play either, but I'll "accept it" and can fully understand the logic behind it in a game where we beat the AFC's #1.

WTS, I'm done with Carlos; Imma go with he was just too slow to penetrate and got lucky. 

(12-06-2022, 03:38 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Kudos to you. 

At the time, the criticism was deserved...to an extent. To me, they felt unprepared coming into the season on how to beat certain kinds of defenses. The EPA shows that. 

Burrow and ZT have matured and evolved a lot this year. 

Yep.

Both of them kicking it up a notch. 

Decent O-line blocking sure helps a hell of a lot as well !

Let's toss in some RBs blocking respectably (except for one) too. 

Seems a long way from that 1st Steelers disaster.

Let's just hope they can take care of business against the Stains and erase that butt stomping they took from them earlier.

(12-06-2022, 03:03 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I'll be the first to eat crow.

I always liked ZT as a head coach, but always thought his offense was lacking. It was set up on go balls to Chase and his offense wasn't sustainable.

After the first half of the season, a lot of us complained about the offense and how we couldn't beat cover two.

Well, this offense has evolved remarkably since then. They are using the entire field, throwing intermediate, and running with consistency.

I think we need to give ZT and his offensive staff a TON of credit for adjusting on the fly and turning this offense around from one dimensional to completely fluent.

Bengals EPA vs Cover 2
First 6 weeks: -.07 (28th in league)
After week 6: .36 (1st)

That is incredible.

Just needed to learn, been saying for a long time he is young and can learn. He wasn't an old dog who couldn't learn the new tricks.

(12-06-2022, 08:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: They had 49 seconds to do down and score a field gold or touchdown regardless, and they didn't. The only difference is the Bengals didn't get 3 points.

The difference is that KC was at the 7 yard line after the turnover on downs at the end of the half, and the Bengals still had two time outs. You honestly think that KC and Andy Reid and Mahomes would have not tried to get into field goal position or score a TD if they start at the 25? That Andy Reid used the KC timeouts not trying to save time on the clock to go down and score before the half?

There are a lot of plays one can nitpick and second guess after the fact, but I believe almost any coach in the world would have went for it. Heck, Andy Reid went for it on 4th and 3. I think the players would have blanched if their coach didn't show enough faith in them to get that 4th down.

And Taylor deserved to get credit for going for it on 3rd and 11 on the last drive of the game. Even Higgens said he was surprised that they weren't going to run the ball. Most coaches would tell the team to run the ball and take time off the clock and kick the 3 and go up 6. But Zac didn't want to put the ball back in Mahomes hands with the chance to beat them with a TD. So, he put it in the hands of the Bengals best player to go and win the game. 

(12-06-2022, 09:42 PM)Nepa Wrote: The difference is that KC was at the 7 yard line after the turnover on downs and the Bengals still had two time outs. You honestly think that KC and Andy Reid and Mahomes would have not tried to get into field goal position if they start at the 25? That Andy Reid used the KC timeouts not trying to save time on the clock to go down and score before the half?

There are a lot of plays one can nitpick and second guess after the fact, but I believe almost any coach in the world would have went for it. Heck, Andy Reid went for it on 4th and 3. I think the players would have blanched if their coach didn't show enough faith in them to get that 4th down.

And Taylor deserved to get credit for going for it on 3rd and 11 on the last drive of the game. Even Higgens said he was surprised that they weren't going to run the ball. Most coaches would tell the team to run the ball and take time off the clock and kick the 3 and go up 6. But Zac didn't want to put the ball back in Mahomes hands with the chance to beat them with a TD. So, he put it in the hands of the Bengals best player to go and win the game. 

Yep, same as he didn't want to give Mahommes a shot last year in Cincy on that crazy goal line sequence. They're just too dangerous to take your foot off the throttle.

I’ll ‘fess up: I wanted Zac Taylor gone from the middle of 2019 even into the beginning of 2021. Except for good draft picks he didn’t show me anything and I’m not too proud to admit I was wrong. However, it only hit me recently as to WHY I was wrong.

It’s the offensive line. The change from zone blocking to gap blocking made the difference.

Philosophically, zone blocking is built upon the idea that every offensive lineman is responsible for an area rather than an individual defender. That’s why we saw some Bengal linemen seemingly in blocking position with nobody to block. In zone blocking steps are taken in unison which gives the play away early. Also, each lineman must use the same technique.

Conversely, a gap blocking scheme is built around the principle that linemen will block down to use their leverage on a defender. Steps are not taken in unison which makes the defense hesitate. In gap, linemen are not obliged to use the same technique. Ted Karras uses his leverage differently, say, than La’el Collins and in gap this is perfectly acceptable.

Sorry for the tangent; back to Zac. His play calling appeared random and uninformed because his line, prior to the change to gap, could not sustain blocks in zone and Andy Dalton, Joe Mixon, and especially Joe Burrow paid the price.

Remember this mnemonic: “The more the line stinks the more the playbook shrinks.”

Zac had, at the worst, maybe five plays he could call. Even in 2021 the Bengals went to the Super Bowl with about ten plays in the offensive playbook — along with the occasional big play. The offense was handcuffed by crap line play, period.

The Bengals first switched to gap blocking against the Saints in 2022. That was the beginning of what has become an offensive explosion in Cincinnati and all of a sudden Zac “became” a good play caller almost overnight but the explanation is simple: The playbook is now wide open.

Keep Zac. Please.