(01-13-2023, 11:32 AM)Synric Wrote: No but you can always improve to create a better product it's called innovation.

Zac has done a great job as a leader though. Building the kinda family culture you love seeing as a fan. Remember in 2019 when we were hearing "We are going to draft and bring in captains and leaders" well we are seeing the fruits of that.

This offseason I dont expect much coaching changes but I hope they bring an offensive consultant that has more experience in the spread air raid that Burrow wants to run. 

I was always a big believer in the window dressing. Lately, i've backed away from it a bit because it's really dependent on if you QB needs or wants it. If Burrow is more comfortable in the simple things like declaring man or zone and doesn't really want all that other stuff and he's able to perform better that way, there's no real reason to do it--even if league-wide statistics say it's more successful. 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be more successful with the Bengals but if your QB simply doesn't want it, why do it?

With the Bengals, it kind of seems that Burrow needs to be talked into it and see that it's more beneficial...which kind of negates my original point (lol), but he's the one taking the snaps and they're winning with what they're doing so, i don't know...   

Beyond all of that stuff, i would just be sooooo much more happy if they didn't run SO many vertical and out routes and mixed in some more crossing and stuff down the middle. They have starting using the backs out of the backfield more, so that's one box checked. 

(01-13-2023, 01:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Never said they're lucky, please don't make up things I didn't say. I said the draft is a gamble and that the odds of that gamble are increased when you pick extremely highly. 

The Jags had back-to-back years with top-5 draft picks and now they're in the playoffs. Obviously it helps when you find a QB with one of your picks, like the Bengals did with Burrow.
The Jets had back-to-back years with top-5 draft picks and were 7-4 before collapsing because of injuries and missing on their QB.
The Browns had back-to-back years with top-5 draft picks and it led to them winning a playoff game despite missing on their QB.

That's 4 teams (including the Bengals) in just in the last 6 years. It's not all that uncommon. It's no guarantee, but it helps a TON.

The Jets, Giants, and Lions went through coaches and were much slower turning it around. You say you can’t measure Volson or CTB I’d disagree. Currently you’d have to say they are a success. Comments about minimizing the draft picks just because they were high and the subsequent ones at 33 etc aren’t a sure fire. They’ve earned this turnaround and just crediting Zac for changing the culture shortsighted. Geez he’s 3-0 vs Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes. But I’d guess you could say Joe Burrow hasn’t played enough to declare him one of the best QB in the NFL. He’s not won a SB he’s not been All -Pro all the time or has he once? Sorry my eyes tell me he is.

(01-13-2023, 05:47 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Tell me you don't know how to football without telling me you don't know how to football. 

And why Lou’s phone is not ringing off the wall on these open jobs. Not all the GM’s and owners are stupid. They know the good coaches. It’s why Taylor was aggressively pursued by Denver and Arizona. But that’s not to say they are naive to not be vetting him. He’s a ton better than a bunch of these guys.

On the 50-yard line doing the chicken dance after our defense stonewalls Baltimore.

(01-13-2023, 06:07 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The Jets, Giants, and Lions went through coaches and were much slower turning it around. You say you can’t measure Volson or CTB I’d disagree. Currently you’d have to say they are a success. Comments about minimizing the draft picks just because they were high and the subsequent ones at 33 etc aren’t a sure fire. They’ve earned this turnaround and just crediting Zac for changing the culture shortsighted. Geez he’s 3-0 vs Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes. But I’d guess you could say Joe Burrow hasn’t played enough to declare him one of the best QB in the NFL. He’s not won a SB he’s not been All -Pro all the time or has he once? Sorry my eyes tell me he is.

What? Brian Daboll took the Giants to the playoffs this year in his first year. Dan Campbell got the Lions a winning season in his 2nd year.

I never credited just Zac. Ever. He's also 2-6 against the Browns and 3-5 against the Ravens. Some teams you just match up with better than others.

Also seriously, last time I am going to say this. Stop making up things I didn't say. You already replied to a post I made where I said "lets see if they improve in 2023" which isn't a strange belief to say that you should see at least two years from guys before declaring them a success, so you decided to take it to an unproductively useless hyperbolic degree where I am done. Have a good weekend.

He’s trending up and hot in a big way, getting talked about a lot on games as well. Usually means an onward move.

I think all three Bengals' coordinators deserve a shot, and none of them seem to be fielding any calls. That's beneficial for our sake, but I find it rather odd.

(01-13-2023, 06:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: What? Brian Daboll took the Giants to the playoffs this year in his first year. Dan Campbell got the Lions a winning season in his 2nd year.

I never credited just Zac. Ever. He's also 2-6 against the Browns and 3-5 against the Ravens. Some teams you just match up with better than others.

Also seriously, last time I am going to say this. Stop making up things I didn't say. You already replied to a post I made where I said "lets see if they improve in 2023" which isn't a strange belief to say that you should see at least two years from guys before declaring them a success, so you decided to take it to an unproductively useless hyperbolic degree where I am done. Have a good weekend.

I’ll play. One year with Daboli like your comments on whether Volson or CTB have been a success doesn’t mean much. It works both ways.

(01-13-2023, 09:55 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: I think Lou can run a team better and hire the right coaches and stratagize better. As for play calling, I don't like Zac making the calls. Remember, nobody wanted to work for Zac until Lou came and created the best bengals D ever and he's done way better with his side than Zac and Callahan put together.

You're kind of answering your question here.  Lou is great at running his side of the ball, playcalling, schemes, coaching guys up and working with the talent he has to get a solid product in return.  That's been the exact gripe on ZT the past few years, is whether his playcalling has done those same things.  That's what makes a great coordinator.  

On the other side of this, is someone who is a leader, who can drive the culture combining all three sets of teams out there, has the public persona and ability to bring everyone together under one common goal.  That's what a great HC, and those are the things Zac has brought that are hard to argue (and always have been, even when some of us have griped about his shortcomings).  

I've never understood anyone's argument that the best coordinators should be HCs.  It's a completely different skill set.  Every year when the openings are announced and people look at candidates, there's always so much focus on what they did as coordinators or specialists and how that will benefit the team in need.  But those skills don't always translate to HC, and they don't have the same time/ability to focus on just that one area when the entire team is their job.  I want a guy who's primary skillset is soft skills and game management acting as HC.  Let the OC and DC do their thing and focus on that. 

I like Lou, I don't want to lose him.  I'm not getting into a Lou vs Zim conversation, but I think Lou has done what this team needed and stepped up in a big way.  But I don't think we've had any clarity into whether he possesses the skills that make a difference between a coordinator and HC.  And quite frankly, he may not even want to pursue that route.  Sometimes the top isn't everyone's goal. He may love his role focusing on his specialty and not getting caught up in the rest of it.  

(01-13-2023, 03:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: They did? Brandon Thompson, Chris Crocker, Rey Maualuga, Dre Kirkpatrick all started that game and weren't good. Thompson and Crocker never started another game in the NFL afterwards. Domata Peko, Michael Johnson, and George Iloka were just okay.

Atkins tore his knee in 2013. That defense was pretty much just Dunlap, Burfict, Reggie, Pacman, and a bunch of meh, and even Dunlap wasn't as good as Hendrickson. So only 3/11 starters in that 2013 playoff game were more talented than their current counterparts.

Hendrickson > Dunlap
Hubbard > M Johnson
Hill > Thompson
Reader > Peko

Wilson < Burfict
Pratt > Maualuga

Apple = Kirkpatrick
CTB < A Jones
Hilton > Crocker
Bates < Nelson
Bell > Iloka

I think that's a pretty non-controversial rating.

- - - - - -

I 100% also believe that's part of what made him shy away, but he wasn't big on it even prior to then.

I give the FA credit more to Katie. I doubt Zac was the first coach to ever ask Mike for FA $. The timing of it aligned with Mike Brown taking a step back (not gone, but a step back) in running the team and Katie and Troy taking a step forward. They F'd up the Whit situation, but they certainly opened up the FA pocketbook.

We don't have a bunch of super stars now....they play within the scheme, and are fundamentally sound.  Some of those guys were loose cannons....and the staff couldn't reel them in. They weren't mentally tough. So in all his greatness, even Zimmer couldn't rein them in when it mattered most. Now I'm not saying Anarumo is light years better than Zim or anything silly, but I do believe he holds his own. You can't forget the defense he inherited was breaking records under Marvin and cost Teryl Austin his job. Even the FO isn't dumb enough to not realize you have a shot if you flip the roster around a young franchise QB. Hendrickson is the only guy I'd consider to be a star. Awuzie had a revitalization here along with Apple, Pratt and Wilson are homegrown talent. Hubbard is a holdover, Reader has become a star on a good team, but he was legit coming in. Seems like decent coaching anyway. Don't forget, we traded Billy "Oléhi Jr" for BJ Hill.

Still, with the chips on the line, who you taking? 

(01-13-2023, 10:57 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yes, Paul Alexander.

Not why we lost him 

When we were looking for a coach after Marvin Lewis the one big grip from fans before we signed Zac was all the other head coaches that was hired that year was signing all the good OC DC and all the other coaches under them. So, most teams and fans do not want to wait till after the Superbowl to hire all the other coaches that goes along with a rebuild. The longer we go in the playoffs the better chance we got at keeping our OC and DC.

(01-13-2023, 11:33 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: What's Zimmer supposed to say? His guy sucks? Lol... We know that's not true because he wasn't Vince Wilfork, or Haloti Ngata, or Casey Hampton (off the top of my head). Peko wasn't even a top-2 NT in his own division. He wasn't bad, but he wasn't great, and he's certainly nowhere near DJ Reader good.

Compared to Hendrickson? Dunlap was good and started young and managed to stay relevant for a long time, but he never had the ceiling performance that Hendrickson is showing. In 3 seasons as a starter Hendrickson already has more double digit sack seasons than Dunlap, and it's spanning two defenses/DCs so it's not even a Lou thing.

How can we possibly measure if a player is playing harder for one guy or another? As I said, Lou's defense has been below average in scoring defense in 3/4 years. Zimmer's was top-10 in 4/6 years. If Zimmer's guys weren't playing hard and still managed to regularly get top-10 defenses then Zimmer is even better than I thought.

What? You talked about the Fisher Price DL, well all three of those guys, Michael Johnson, Carlos Dunlap, and Geno Atkins, were all backups that were developed from 3rd, 2nd, and 4th rounds. Not to mention the tons of rejects and has-beens who either found their career reinvented or rejuvenated here under Zimmer's scheme. Lol... as for "ever on either side of the ball"... Bob Bratkowski stopped evolving with the NFL, but his first year here was when Chad, Housh, Rudi all got drafted and started being developed. Willie also hit a whole new level when Brat came around, too.

Trey Hendrickson may put up better sack numbers, but I feel like Carlos was more versatile. I don't have the almighty grades, but it seems to me Dunlap was better against the run and way more athletic. The dude returned fumbles and interceptions (Trey's next pick will be his first) for TDs. He'd run down guys from behind.

I agree with your general premise though. Zimmer was a better coach than Lou... Period. But Lou's our guy now. So whatever.

(01-13-2023, 07:13 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’ll play. One year with Daboli like your comments on whether Volson or CTB have been a success doesn’t mean much. It works both ways.

It does show that you don't have to draft two "generational" talents back to back to compete though. You don't have to completely flip a roster to have success. Any way you slice it, Zac did a poor job with what he had to work with early on. It's undeniable.

(01-13-2023, 11:05 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I don't see Lou going anywhere. His personality doesn't scream "head coach" to me and he's not a sexy enough hire for a lot of teams around the league.

How do you think the public perception from Bears fans/media would be if a team like them hires a DC from Cincinnati as their head coach?

Not sure why people keep saying this?  Every Coordinator wants to be an HC.  Rarely do they turn down offers unless one, or all of, the owner, team, cap are a terrible mess. 

Or they are in waiting with their own team, like Mayo at NE.

(01-13-2023, 09:55 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: I think Lou can run a team better and hire the right coaches and stratagize better. As for play calling, I don't like Zac making the calls. Remember, nobody wanted to work for Zac until Lou came and created the best bengals D ever and he's done way better with his side than Zac and Callahan put together.

If this is your opinion, no matter how terribly awful it may be, you have every right to it.

(01-14-2023, 03:13 AM)jason Wrote: It does show that you don't have to draft two "generational" talents back to back to compete though. You don't have to completely flip a roster to have success. Any way you slice it, Zac did a poor job with what he had to work with early on. It's undeniable.

What Zac had early on was an aging roster that was well past their prime. That roster was in extremely bad shape and if you remember the games we did lose a lot of them were by 1 score.

He's also grown as a HC yes he still makes head scratching playcalls but what coach doesn't? I can argue that if Andy Reid just ran the ball vs. the Bengals in the 1st two matchups they would of won easily vs. our Bengals. 

(01-14-2023, 03:13 AM)jason Wrote: It does show that you don't have to draft two "generational" talents back to back to compete though. You don't have to completely flip a roster to have success. Any way you slice it, Zac did a poor job with what he had to work with early on. It's undeniable.

Cincy’s roster was awful. The Giants was not. The coaching was the issue at NYG

(01-13-2023, 01:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: As Sunset and others said, defensive minded coaches going on and being Head Coaches is kind of a thing of the past.

Which is great for us and keeping Lou around for years to come. Brian could go somewhere if he is wanted and be a full
on Offensive Coordinator maybe. He is the coach I could see leaving maybe. Or Betcher could go somewhere and be a full
on Defensive Coordinator for someone, this guy is also a great Defensive mind just like Lou.

Agree. The current coaching hires in the NFL seem to be learning towards the offensive minds. Franchises are looking at teams like the Bengals, Buffalo, KC, Phlly and see elite offenses and decide that’s the direction they need to go. Can’t argue their point.

But, eventually the pendulum will swing in the other direction towards defensive minds.

That said, I haven’t heard one peep bout Lou getting any interviews…anywhere.

(01-14-2023, 03:13 AM)jason Wrote: It does show that you don't have to draft two "generational" talents back to back to compete though. You don't have to completely flip a roster to have success. Any way you slice it, Zac did a poor job with what he had to work with early on. It's undeniable.

But, Dalton couldn’t do what Zac needed him to do. AJ Green, as much as I love the guy, has been on a steady decline since he left here.

Zac knew the direction he wanted to go. He didn’t have the players to get him there when he was first hired.

Fans think it’s only about Xs and Os as a head coach. More importantly, it’s about management, personnel choices and locker room building. In all of those cases, Zac has succeeded.