(01-17-2023, 01:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: That's fair, but you must understand, we have a QB who is on record stating "All sacks are not bad".

I feel if I were to ask Burrow the exact same question he'd say "Don't hold, give me a chance to make a play".

WTS, I'll concede "Borderline elite" may have been a bit of hyperbole. He's shown he can be "borderline very good".

The injuries are a valid concern, but lots of LTs get banged up. 

As far as long-term I feel it comes down to 2 things:

Price
What Burrow wants  

Well, I'll never question the competitiveness of any QB and especially Burrow but I know what I've witnessed over the years watching football and especially with a QB that is a MVP candidate, has already had a significant injury AND, more importantly regarding the elephant in the room, with a team that I have absolutely ZERO confidence if we had to go to the backup QB.

Give me a really solid backup that can keep you in 3-4 games and win those games then I might feel a tad differently.You gotta be able to sometimes just live another play.

(01-17-2023, 01:55 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: A few weeks ago, Dehner and Morrison mentioned that Jonah probably wouldn't get any sort of extension. Apparently the FO/coaches feel like they're not getting what they expected out of the 11th overall pick. 

I expect an OT to be drafted in the earlier rounds in the next draft. 

Well that is telling. I am on the unsure side with Jonah, we will bring him back next season but I could see us adding a LT 
in Free Agency preferably. Volson was a great pick, but usually drafting OL just doesn't work out for us and with our additions
in FA playing well late in the season the FO has seen the proof in getting veteran players that have been good in the NFL over
a draft pick that is always questionable.

I voted no,but I guess we could do worse.So,I guess I wouldn’t be extremely upset if they did sign him.

On the other hand,an Elite QB like Burrow is hard to come by,and if I make a huge investment in signing my franchise QB into an extremely lucrative deal,then I would prefer the best LT I could find,or could afford,to protect his blind side.


At least that’s the way I would prefer to address the situation,but,that’s up to Mike Brown.

I will say that I don't know about replacing him through the draft. We haven't shown that this regime can develop OL talent. Volson is arguably an exception but even his scores are average at best. I'd say he just emphasizes how low our bar has plummeted (not his fault). Smith and Hill are hardly getting a sniff and Carman's only come in on an emergency basis. Adeniji's a year older and he's partly why we're having this conversation at all (again, through no fault of his own- he's a Day 3 and in some ways we should consider ourselves lucky that he's even on the 53 anymore). We didn't pick Prince but it's fair to include him in the same category. None of these projects has amounted to much. And Jonah himself was a Round 1 who hasn't panned out either.

Long story short, I think we should take the FA route. Karras and Cappa were solid this year. Collins underwhelmed but we were still disappointed when he got hurt. Reiff was a good pickup while he was around. So for this team and the current cast of stars, I'd prefer signing proven commodities to trying to turn water into wine.

He gave up themost sacks of any LT in the league. Some of that was trying to play through the kneecap dislocation. But I vote no.

But he is gonna be the starter next year.

(01-17-2023, 05:55 PM)tms Wrote: I will say that I don't know about replacing him through the draft. We haven't shown that this regime can develop OL talent. Volson is arguably an exception but even his scores are average at best. I'd say he just emphasizes how low our bar has plummeted (not his fault). Smith and Hill are hardly getting a sniff and Carman's only come in on an emergency basis. Adeniji's a year older and he's partly why we're having this conversation at all (again, through no fault of his own- he's a Day 3 and in some ways we should consider ourselves lucky that he's even on the 53 anymore). We didn't pick Prince but it's fair to include him in the same category. None of these projects has amounted to much. And Jonah himself was a Round 1 who hasn't panned out either.

Long story short, I think we should take the FA route. Karras and Cappa were solid this year. Collins underwhelmed but we were still disappointed when he got hurt. Reiff was a good pickup while he was around. So for this team and the current cast of stars, I'd prefer signing proven commodities to trying to turn water into wine.

Pretty much what I was getting at, nice post TMS. Go for the proven vets in FA over the Draft picks no question IMHO.

(01-17-2023, 07:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Pretty much what I was getting at, nice post TMS. Go for the proven vets in FA over the Draft picks no question IMHO.

Makes sense to me. Draft BPA and sign vets for immediate needs.

(01-17-2023, 02:57 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: you're overly harsh. You reference sacks, but Jonah was still rated towards the top half of starting LT's in the league last season

couple injuries derailing his play this year, yea, it's a down year

but he's an average starting LT for the most part. Calling him one of the worst is way too big of an overreaction

Nooooooooo

You’re one of the ONLY sane people on this site.

(01-17-2023, 02:57 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: you're overly harsh. You reference sacks, but Jonah was still rated towards the top half of starting LT's in the league last season

couple injuries derailing his play this year, yea, it's a down year

but he's an average starting LT for the most part. Calling him one of the worst is way too big of an overreaction

Using sacks allowed as a stat Williams is one of the worst starting left tackles in a league. Joey franchise deserves better. 

In my opinion after next year unless he somehow gets stronger and finds away to not let the shorter arms be a such disadvantage I say no way at 12 mil per year. If he can get stronger I think he'd be better inside but he has been disappointing.

I'm hoping we can hit on a tackle in the draft. In 21 the Jags got Little from Stanford in the 2nd round and that guy has been a stud. When I think of a prototypical LT he's the type that comes to my mind. The dude is strong as they come and last week against the Chargers he gave the business to K Mack. Mack couldn't move the guy. Little just constantly overpowered him, most reps it didn't even look fair, just dominated him.

That said it's so strange these last 6 or so years that we haven't had good Tackles. One thing we always seemed to be able to do was find good tackles even when we weren't good at all. Now we can't seem to find a top notch one for anything. The Cedric O and Fisher draft didn't help with neither of them panning out and leading to Whitworth leaving. Even Andre Smith while a lot didn't like the pick thought he was lazy, his holdout etc he never lived up to his draft spot and wasn't a top tier RT he was better than Jonah has been so far in my opinion. Stacy Andrew's even had a couple years where he played better than Jonah.

Wonder why all the sudden for the last decade or so it's been an issue getting really good tackles. We went from Munoz Anderson Whitworth Smith Levi Jones etc to what we've had lately. Can't be due to Alexander not being here because he was here when we drafted Cedic and Fisher. I suppose his judgment/evaluations must have been pretty solid for a long time then just wasn't anymore? Maybe the game going more pass heavy led to him not adapting his evaluation process? I know Jim Mcnally had been helping in that regard for a long time and think he was still last year. Is he still doing it now?He's always been one of the most respected when it comes to evaluation of and teaching the oline. Idk, it's weird you could always count on Cincy to have good tackles to what it's been the last decade or so now. I can only imagine how good this team would be if you plugged any of those guys in the tackle spots.

I call him, look out joe. It seams he is always turning around as the defensive player is running past him, I at least hope he is yelling look out joe? Our OL 1st round draft picks have been horrendous.

(01-17-2023, 11:01 PM)chopperbobby Wrote: I call him, look out joe. It seams he is always turning around as the defensive player is running past him, I at least hope he is yelling look out joe? Our OL 1st round draft picks have been horrendous.

Zeitler was good.

(01-17-2023, 11:03 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Zeitler was good.

Zeitler got a clutch penalty last game. Was nice to see.

(01-17-2023, 11:51 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Zeitler got a clutch penalty last game. Was nice to see.

That run game was humming though.

I never thought of him as a LT honestly but i shared a post aboput washington huskies Jaxson Krikland already in a different thread, whom i think could be absolutely amazing in later rounds. I would target Anton HArrison or Ocyrus Torrence in this draft if you want a lineman earlier like round 1. Harrison is a killer pass blocker but needs to improve in the run game and Torrence is probably just the best guard in the draft.

Ocyrus Torrence article and video

https://www.draftdive.com/ocyrus-torrence-scouting-report/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DVW6Yde8HU&ab_channel=HackCity

Anton HArrison Article and video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpfgMZ6yKQU&ab_channel=RealFriends%26Football

https://www.draftdive.com/anton-harrison-scouting-report/

He is a good but not great player. The question is do you want him or Tee Higgins Long Term. I would rather have Higgins.

(01-18-2023, 12:36 AM)J24 Wrote: He is a good but not great player. The question is do you want him or Tee Higgins Long Term. I would rather have Higgins.

I’d rather have several players that are due for new contracts over Jonah. Besides Tee, also both LBers.

(01-18-2023, 01:16 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’d rather have several players that are due for new contracts over Jonah. Besides Tee, also both LBers.

Definitely. You sign the best players and let the market decide Jonah’s value before signing him to a cheaper deal or moving on.

(01-18-2023, 01:16 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’d rather have several players that are due for new contracts over Jonah. Besides Tee, also both LBers.

I agree with that. Personally I would put Bates, Bell, and Wilson over him. I would have him over Pratt because I think Germain is a 2 down player + I think ADG would be a good starter if given a chance.

(01-17-2023, 08:43 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Makes sense to me. Draft BPA and sign vets for immediate needs.

What is nice is the guys on the OL we brought in actually did start playing great, so we shouldn't be shy about going out and 
getting proven vets in FA. I was afraid if they played poorly that the FO would once again go back to the old ways of pretty much
relying on the Draft which in my opinion is an outdated concept.