In the AFCN you have to have some "dog" as the young kids say. You can't have a team full of choir boys as some old heads would say. Marvin sacrificed character for that "dog" and while it gave us the edge we needed to have some bite against some of the other "dogs" in the AFCN, we paid a heavy price for it with penalties, arrests, and emotional meltdowns.

Zac has somehow gotten players with edge and fight, without the character flaws. This team is full of choir boys, but yesterday showed me they have bark AND bite to go along with high character.

This team seems finesse, but somehow they aren't. They are tough and physical, without all the character sacrifices that haunted us in the past. Zac and the Front Office has done a great job walking that thin line this new era.

New Dey is actually a thing after all......

(01-23-2023, 03:23 PM)jj22 Wrote: In the AFCN you have to have some "dog" as the young kids say. You can't have a team full of choir boys as some old heads would say. Marvin sacrificed character for that "dog" and while it gave us the edge we needed to have some bite against some of the other "dogs" in the AFCN, but we paid a heavy price for it with penalties, arrests, and emotional meltdowns.

Zac has somehow gotten players with edge and fight, without the character flaws. This team is full of choir boys, but yesterday showed me they have bark AND bite to go along with high character.

This team seems finesse, but somehow they aren't. They are tough and physical, without all the character sacrifices that haunted us in the past. Zac and the Front Office has done a great job walking that thin line this new era.

I was literally just speaking to a buddy about this same thing. ZT treating playing for the Bengals like a job and interviewing these guys in FA & draft process. Vetting them out. He had a vision, sold the club on that vision, and then stuck to it.

Kudos to the Bengals FO for getting on board with the unproven. How many times on this board was the argument made to not fire Marvin due to the unknown? "Who else you going to get?". Same w Andy Dalton. The fear of the unknown is crippling.... but visionaries are motivated by the possibilities.

Very impressive. Could NOT be more thrilled with the roster makeup and direction of the franchise.

(01-23-2023, 03:23 PM)jj22 Wrote: In the AFCN you have to have some "dog" as the young kids say. You can't have a team full of choir boys as some old heads would say. Marvin sacrificed character for that "dog" and while it gave us the edge we needed to have some bite against some of the other "dogs" in the AFCN, we paid a heavy price for it with penalties, arrests, and emotional meltdowns.

Zac has somehow gotten players with edge and fight, without the character flaws. This team is full of choir boys, but yesterday showed me they have bark AND bite to go along with high character.

This team seems finesse, but somehow they aren't. They are tough and physical, without all the character sacrifices that haunted us in the past. Zac and the Front Office has done a great job walking that thin line this new era.

Built on a ROCK. You can see the faith this team has in beating any team. Go ahead and overlook us, I look for this to happen once
again with the Chiefs and in the Superbowl no matter if it is the Eagles or 49ers. This team is special, they are just as physical as any
team once they put their mind to it. They can play finesse or be the beat your ass physical AFC North team just the same. Great job 
by the FO believing in Zac and being able to see something in Lou Anarumo, many like myself did not see.

(01-23-2023, 03:44 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I was literally just speaking to a buddy about this same thing. ZT treating playing for the Bengals like a job and interviewing these guys in FA & draft process. Vetting them out. He had a vision, sold the club on that vision, and then stuck to it.

Kudos to the Bengals FO for getting on board with the unproven. How many times on this board was the argument made to not fire Marvin due to the unknown? "Who else you going to get?". Same w Andy Dalton. The fear of the unknown is crippling.... but visionaries are motivated by the possibilities.

Very impressive. Could NOT be more thrilled with the roster makeup and direction of the franchise.

I also think this organization saw they needed to change also, I do believe Marvin was held back at times and could have put a better field of players out there.. do you think anytime, no doubt Dalton and company would have befitted in going out and getting some FA lineman and Zimmer going out and signing some FA defense players.  I give ZT a ton of credit on it but I also can say "what if" with the teams we had during our playoff run with Marvin if we would have added a couple pieces I truly believe they could have competed better in the playoffs and made it the AFC division champ one of those years.. 

Kudos though to the Organization to realize what they need to do to help Taylor and Burrow ...

(01-23-2023, 03:23 PM)jj22 Wrote: In the AFCN you have to have some "dog" as the young kids say. You can't have a team full of choir boys as some old heads would say. Marvin sacrificed character for that "dog" and while it gave us the edge we needed to have some bite against some of the other "dogs" in the AFCN, we paid a heavy price for it with penalties, arrests, and emotional meltdowns.

Zac has somehow gotten players with edge and fight, without the character flaws. This team is full of choir boys, but yesterday showed me they have bark AND bite to go along with high character.

This team seems finesse, but somehow they aren't. They are tough and physical, without all the character sacrifices that haunted us in the past. Zac and the Front Office has done a great job walking that thin line this new era.

That's the most impressive thing about this team.  They've got a potent offense, which makes one typically go straight to the "finesse team" assumption.  But they're still AFCN pounders, getting physical on both sides of the ball.  That Chase block circulating on one of the other threads here is a great example.  They're physical, determined and play as a unit.  

That last one (playing as a unit) is what makes the team the most special since ZT has arrived.  Both sides calling each other on and playing as one team, and guys putting the team ahead of themselves.  I know it's a different roster than 5 years ago, but it feels like the team has "matured" to a place where they realize what's important and they're going after the same goal.  The 90s feel an eternity away. 

It’s not fair to compare. Zac has benefited from all the Blackburns influence. He’s also benefited from a more aggressive franchise. They sensed they were losing support. Zac was young and had a vision he wasn’t stale. These younger coaches get todays athletes. They know them. They know what makes them tick. Zac Taylor is as good there as anywhere. I think Duke saw Zac’s vision and plan and convinced Mike Brown to buy in. No question everybody being on the same page has had a huge bearing.

Marvin's shot was when he had Palmer and a good line. But, those teams generally had bad defenses.

Kimo might have derailed Marvin's best shot.

(01-23-2023, 05:45 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: It’s not fair to compare. Zac has benefited from all the Blackburns influence. He’s also benefited from a more aggressive franchise. They sensed they were losing support. Zac was young and had a vision he wasn’t stale. These younger coaches get todays athletes. They know them. They know what makes them tick. Zac Taylor is as good there as anywhere. I think Duke saw Zac’s vision and plan and convinced Mike Brown to buy in. No question everybody being on the same page has had a huge bearing.

Fair post. Plus, I think MB really wants a SB and due to age, only has a finite number of seasons left to do it.

It's easier to spend too with Burrow. He inspires confidence 

I am a big Marvin apologist and would have to say that if Marvin had Burrow things might be different. Heck, if Carson Palmer hadn't gotten injured in 2005 we probably would have gone all the way that year.

Was it a mistake to stick with Andy Dalton and was that Marvin's decision? I don't know the answer to those questions. I liked Dalton too and there were a few times where we felt so very close.

(01-23-2023, 06:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Marvin's shot was when he had Palmer and a good line. But, those teams generally had bad defenses.

Kimo might have derailed Marvin's best shot.

I agree. Marvin had a team that was similar to this iteration. Worse defense, but the same explosive offense with a young, stud QB. The main difference is Carson was injured in that playoff run. Who knows what that team does if he stays healthy? I think they win that Steelers game, not sure beyond that. Maybe Cincinnati strings together some more successful seasons afterwards. It just didn't work out that way.

(01-23-2023, 06:04 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: I am a big Marvin apologist and would have to say that if Marvin had Burrow things might be different. Heck, if Carson Palmer hadn't gotten injured in 2005 we probably would have gone all the way that year.

Was it a mistake to stick with Andy Dalton and was that Marvin's decision? I don't know the answer to those questions. I liked Dalton too and there were a few times where we felt so very close.

I think this is the best post about the differences.

Palmer doesn't get cheap shotted and the team would have won playoff games before now. 

Then compare the activity in free agency and the different feel with less Mike Brown.

Finally Dalton versus Burrow. I like Andy, good guy decent QB but lacked that little something that swagger that Burrow has. If you flipped nothing but Dalton and Burrow, Marvin would have been in the Super Bowl and Zac would be looking for a playoff win.

Having arguably the best QB in the league helps.

Let's not overthink this one...

(01-23-2023, 06:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Marvin's shot was when he had Palmer and a good line. But, those teams generally had bad defenses.

Kimo might have derailed Marvin's best shot.

Might have? It totally changed the direction of the franchise, 1 dirty play.

(01-23-2023, 06:14 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I agree. Marvin had a team that was similar to this iteration. Worse defense, but the same explosive offense with a young, stud QB. The main difference is Carson was injured in that playoff run. Who knows what that team does if he stays healthy? I think they win that Steelers game, not sure beyond that. Maybe Cincinnati strings together some more successful seasons afterwards. It just didn't work out that way.

Yes. I feel that game killed Palmer and the franchises mojo going forward. 

When it was playoff time, Zac went with what got him there. And if something was working, he'd stick with it until the opposition can actually stop it dead cold in its tracks. But the best thing Zac did was to instill discipline in all his players at all levels. This brought down drive-killing penalties and life-breathers for opposition to almost nil.

(01-23-2023, 06:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Marvin's shot was when he had Palmer and a good line. But, those teams generally had bad defenses.

Kimo might have derailed Marvin's best shot.

While we love TJ and Chad, and I wouldn't put them in the poor character club of Marvin's bad boys of later years. They were emotionally unstable as we saw in that playoff game. The poise wasn't there from our star players like it is now. 

I don't think any of Marvins teams, even the good ones under Palmer had the toughness without the character flaws like this team does. That's the significant difference. DOG without the extra stuff (record arrests, and emotional instability).

(01-23-2023, 06:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Marvin's shot was when he had Palmer and a good line. But, those teams generally had bad defenses.

Kimo might have derailed Marvin's best shot.

I agree that Kimo derailed Marvin's best shot, but then are the players even more out of control and disciplinary problems if they get a Super Bowl win?

Marvin demanded no discipline and I think that's what was his biggest downfall (along with game planning and things, but Palmer was so good that he didn't need much game planning).

(01-23-2023, 06:20 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I think this is the best post about the differences.

Palmer doesn't get cheap shotted and the team would have won playoff games before now. 

Then compare the activity in free agency and the different feel with less Mike Brown.

Finally Dalton versus Burrow. I like Andy, good guy decent QB but lacked that little something that swagger that Burrow has. If you flipped nothing but Dalton and Burrow, Marvin would have been in the Super Bowl and Zac would be looking for a playoff win.

Burrow's arm is a billion times better than Andy's was. Dalton worked with that QB guru to improve his deep ball and overall throwing abilities, and it did improve, but he still struggled with the deep ball. So many times AJ Green had his man beat by 5 yards and had to slow down to catch one of Andy's passes and then got caught by the defender.

I agree that we would have won playoff games if Kimo doesn't roll over Palmer's knee but I think that would have been in spite of Marvin, not because of Marvin.

Marvin demanded no discipline and the team wasn't really a team but just a band of hot heads. 

Hell, look at the meltdown against the Steelers in the 2016 playoffs and tell me if a well-coached team makes those mistakes, from the fumble all the way down to the personal foul against Pacman.

I agree that Zac has it easier with Mike not being as controlling and doing things like building the practice facility, but Marvin should have demanded change.

Marvin was nothing more than a statue that was hired because Mike thought it would excite the fans since he was the d coordinator of one of the best defenses ever.

(01-23-2023, 07:02 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I agree that Kimo derailed Marvin's best shot, but then are the players even more out of control and disciplinary problems if they get a Super Bowl win?

Marvin demanded no discipline and I think that's what was his biggest downfall (along with game planning and things, but Palmer was so good that he didn't need much game planning).

Burrow's arm is a billion times better than Andy's was. Dalton worked with that QB guru to improve his deep ball and overall throwing abilities, and it did improve, but he still struggled with the deep ball. So many times AJ Green had his man beat by 5 yards and had to slow down to catch one of Andy's passes and then got caught by the defender.

I agree that we would have won playoff games if Kimo doesn't roll over Palmer's knee but I think that would have been in spite of Marvin, not because of Marvin.

Marvin demanded no discipline and the team wasn't really a team but just a band of hot heads. 

Hell, look at the meltdown against the Steelers in the 2016 playoffs and tell me if a well-coached team makes those mistakes, from the fumble all the way down to the personal foul against Pacman.

I agree that Zac has it easier with Mike not being as controlling and doing things like building the practice facility, but Marvin should have demanded change.

Marvin was nothing more than a statue that was hired because Mike thought it would excite the fans since he was the d coordinator of one of the best defenses ever.

The Bengals brought in a bunch of guys with character concerns. They did it to add talent cheaper.

Zac is totally the opposite.