(02-22-2023, 10:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure he's "on his way". Seems like only yesterday folks were asserting how AJ Green would rewrite the Bengal's record books. 

I literally said “health permitting.”

(02-22-2023, 10:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I literally said “health permitting.”

And I literally said "He's on his way". 

It's OK, we can say other WRs are/were better than Chase. I'm hoping Chase will be the best WR in NFL history.

Not sure what's "weird" about that. 

(02-22-2023, 10:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And I literally said "He's on his way". 

It's OK, we can say other WRs are/were better than Chase. I'm hoping Chase will be the best WR in NFL history.

Not sure what's "weird" about that. 

Glad to hear it.

Pretty sure Murdock otoh, has a Chase voodoo doll he sticks pins in at night.

(02-22-2023, 09:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Chase had a FAR better start to his career than AB. Like, not even close. He was instantly a top 5 WR as a 21 year old rookie. AB didn’t even break out until his age 25 season. Here are the numbers from his first 3 seasons (38 games):

2010 - 167 yards, 0 TD
2011 - 1108 yards, 2 TD
2012 - 787 yards, 5 TD’s

Health permitting, there’s no reason not to think Chase is already on his way to being better. I think we all can imagine what kind of numbers Chase will be putting up at 25 and beyond.

Health permitting, sure he could certainly end up being better when it is all said and done. But the statement was the Chase is already better than AB and that's just false. 

In his prime, AB was the guy for 5 seasons in the NFL that no CB wanted to face. Right now, I would say that title belongs to Justin Jefferson. 

Can Chase be that guy, it's possible but the argument that a slot guy isn't a WR1 and Chase is light years better than AB in his prime is wrong.

(02-22-2023, 11:12 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Health permitting, sure he could certainly end up being better when it is all said and done. But the statement was the Chase is already better than AB and that's just false. 

In his prime, AB was the guy for 5 seasons in the NFL that no CB wanted to face. Right now, I would say that title belongs to Justin Jefferson. 

Can Chase be that guy, it's possible but the argument that a slot guy isn't a WR1 and Chase is light years better than AB in his prime is wrong.

You have to take opportunity into this…

Browns second year in the league is the closest as far as targets/receptions and chase blew him away. Brown wasn’t contending with a tee Higgins and he really did benefit from extended plays from Big Ben.

I’m not saying chase is better, but we are not fully comparing apples to apples in any comparison.

(02-22-2023, 02:41 PM)Graphicguy Wrote: They have lined up Chase in the slot as a “change it up”.  But, his strengths are lining up outside, where he stretches the field with his speed and his ability to win one on ones (and even double teams).

Chase is better than both Krupp and Brown.  Plus, he can play anywhere.

He is actually more dangerous at slot, it is much easier to double outside WRs.  Not saying he would play outside some as well.  But he would get more balls thrown his way in the slot, IMO.

I’m all for moving Chase around as much as possible. That’s the beauty of having a playmaker as versatile as him. Just get the ball in his hands anyway you can.

(02-22-2023, 09:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Chase had a FAR better start to his career than AB. Like, not even close. He was instantly a top 5 WR as a 21 year old rookie. AB didn’t even break out until his age 25 season.

Chase was a 5th overall pick.
AB was a 6th ROUND pick.

If Chase didn't have a better initial start to his career, that'd honestly be more surprising.

(02-22-2023, 11:46 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: You have to take opportunity into this…

Browns second year in the league is the closest as far as targets/receptions and chase blew him away.   Brown wasn’t contending with a tee Higgins and he really did benefit from extended plays from Big Ben.

I’m not saying chase is better, but we are not fully comparing apples to apples in any comparison.

He was contending with Mike Wallace. Mike Wallace his first 3 years had both more receiving yards and receiving TDs than Higgins. At the end of AB's stretch he was contending with Juju, who started incredibly hot his first 2 years.

He is easy to forget about because he sorta died off once he left the Steelers, but Mike Wallace was seriously legit at that time. He was better than Tee, at least during that stretch.

More opportunity is generally given to a better player. Chase got more than Trenton Irwin, Trenton Irwin got more than Trent Taylor. Antonio Brown got more opportunity in his prime because he was always seemingly always open. If you threw to a worse player as much as AB got thrown to in his prime, you wouldn't have anywhere near as good results. You'd just be throwing a lot of incompletions and picks. Calvin Johnson got 204 targets in his record breaking year because nobody could stop him, if anyone could they would have had to throw to others.


- - - - - - - - - - -

And now I am pissed off that I am on here defending a Steeler, but I can't deny greatness and it's just a fact that AB for about 6 years there was indisputably a top-2 WR and probably not #2.

(02-23-2023, 06:40 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Chase was a 5th overall pick.
AB was a 6th ROUND pick.

If Chase didn't have a better initial start to his career, that'd honestly be more surprising.

Pretty much.

Although draft status aside, AB did walk into a pretty good situation, including a HoF QB, Super Bowl winning HC, and a team that went 12-4 the year before.

(02-23-2023, 07:13 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Pretty much.

Although draft status aside, AB did walk into a pretty good situation, including a HoF QB, Super Bowl winning HC, and a team that went 12-4 the year before.

That actually brought a question to my mind. Is Burger a HoF QB without AB? 

Granted I still don't think he really is one now as he was never the best QB in his time, and he was arguably not even top-5 of his era. He'll probably get in because Steelers seem to have reduced criteria to make it in and they seem to think any QB with a ring or two is going in, but think about this...

Before AB's truly broke out in 2013, his average season passing for the first 9 years of his career was...
3,316 passing yards
21 TDs
12 INTs
He went to 2 Pro Bowls

2013-2018, the 6 years where AB was arugably the best WR in football his average was...
4,392 passing yards
29 TDs
14 INTs
He went to 4 Pro Bowls


I think an AB-less Ben is below Eli Manning in the HoF pecking order of that era.

Quote:And now I am pissed off that I am on here defending a Steeler

I'll never have to worry about that..I'm completely sworn off defending them unless for some really strange coincidence one of them actually saves my life from burning in a building or perhaps a civil war scenario where the enemy is eminently going to kill me and a Steelers player steps in to save me and the odds of that happening are increasingly disappearing as I get older..  However..If one of those does occur I might defend one of them. It'll be tough though.. "The rotten bastard saved my damned life!" 

(02-23-2023, 12:43 AM)casear2727 Wrote: He is actually more dangerous at slot, it is much easier to double outside WRs.  Not saying he would play outside some as well.  But he would get more balls thrown his way in the slot, IMO.

Chase had his best game against the Chiefs and was in the Slot a lot. No doubt he can tear it up in the Slot and on the outside.

Need to use him in a lot of different spots along with all our WR's. I think dialing them into a certain spot would be holding them 
back and adding predictability to this Offense and that is the last thing we need.

(02-23-2023, 07:46 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That actually brought a question to my mind. Is Burger a HoF QB without AB? 

Fair or not, the idea of a QB winning 2 SBs, especially with the Steelers, and not making the HOF seems implausible.  We can go on about how shat Ben was in that first SB win, but people don't look beyond the ring.  I'm pretty sure Jim Plunkett is the only starting QB with 2+ rings who isn't in the HOF.

I definitely think this was a subtle nod. Tbh, I don't see how it could be read as anything else.

That said, knowing Chase, I'd say there's a 0% chance of any ill will behind the statement. It's probably something they joke about and this was a humorous jab.

Reading any more deeply than that is silly, imo.

(02-23-2023, 07:46 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That actually brought a question to my mind. Is Burger a HoF QB without AB? 

Granted I still don't think he really is one now as he was never the best QB in his time, and he was arguably not even top-5 of his era. He'll probably get in because Steelers seem to have reduced criteria to make it in and they seem to think any QB with a ring or two is going in, but think about this...

Before AB's truly broke out in 2013, his average season passing for the first 9 years of his career was...
3,316 passing yards
21 TDs
12 INTs
He went to 2 Pro Bowls

2013-2018, the 6 years where AB was arugably the best WR in football his average was...
4,392 passing yards
29 TDs
14 INTs
He went to 4 Pro Bowls


I think an AB-less Ben is below Eli Manning in the HoF pecking order of that era.

Tbh, both sets of stats are pretty standard issue for any decent QB in this era. He never did anything special. He rode LeBeau's defense and a great run game to 2 quick rings, then coasted the rest of his career on that reputation.

The team increasingly relied more on his arm to win games, but over the last decade, he didn't deliver much in the playoffs.

From 2011 to 2021, Ben was 3-7 in the playoffs, losing games to Tim Tebow, Joe Flacco, the shell of Peyton Manning, Blake Bortles and Baker Mayfield. We all know he should've lost to AJ Macaroni as well.

And this is when they actually MADE the playoffs, which they missed out 4 times in that span.

Imo, Ben would be Carson Palmer and Tomlin would be viewed like Marvin Lewis if they both hadn't inherited Chin's team.

(02-23-2023, 01:18 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m all for moving Chase around as much as possible. That’s the beauty of having a playmaker as versatile as him. Just get the ball in his hands anyway you can.

Yep. If they only played him in the slot, that would be a terrible underutilization of his talent.

(02-24-2023, 10:51 AM)Graphicguy Wrote: Yep.  If they only played him in the slot, that would be a terrible underutilization of his talent.

Who said to only play him in the slot?  That said, receivers with a ton of catches play a lot of snaps in the slot, thus why Chase wants to be in the slot often.  See Tyreek Hill, slot and X, mix it up.  It makes zero sense to keep Chase on the outside every down, thus the reason why we dont. 

(02-24-2023, 01:58 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Who said to only play him in the slot?  That said, receivers with a ton of catches play a lot of snaps in the slot, thus why Chase wants to be in the slot often.  See Tyreek Hill, slot and X, mix it up.  It makes zero sense to keep Chase on the outside every down, thus the reason why we dont. 

Spot on. Move him around along with all our Receivers. But one cannot ignore that Chase had some of his best games playing a 
ton in the Slot. He is so hard to tackle in the middle of the field and it gives multiple players much more to think about.

(02-24-2023, 03:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Spot on. Move him around along with all our Receivers. But one cannot ignore that Chase had some of his best games playing a 
ton in the Slot. He is so hard to tackle in the middle of the field and it gives multiple players much more to think about.

Route running and speed is magnified in the slot. More room to work with. Harder to double and he can still go vertical. He's gonna still line up out wide but the majority of his snaps should be from the slot. 

(02-24-2023, 06:40 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Route running and speed is magnified in the slot. More room to work with. Harder to double and he can still go vertical. He's gonna still line up out wide but the majority of his snaps should be from the slot. 

The problem with that is Boyd can pretty much only play slot. He’s not very good on the outside at all. So for at least one more season that kind of limits how much you can use Chase there.