(02-23-2023, 11:00 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What is likely most impressive about Volson's ability to win and hold the starting LG job as a rookie, is when you consider that he came from a non-FBS school and played for an offense that was overwhelmingly run heavy.

In 15 games in 2021 NDSU attempted a total of 257 passes (27.4% out of 935 plays).  Sure, Volson took some lumps early on as he caught up to the speed and complexities of the NFL game. Then, he grew into the role, and even showed some times of dominance.  If this guy improves on the same trajectory that he did as a rookie, he will likely be a star in the NFL.  

I would have no problem with Volson getting a look at RT this offseason.  However that does create a void at the LG spot, again.  Does the team really want to shuffle multiple positions again, or would they rather keep the interior OL in tact with Volson, Karras and Cappa?  Conventional logic says that it's easier to fix one position than two.

This. Volson should just get better and better. Don't understand some already giving up on a guy who played decent as a rookie.

Sometimes he played great and like you said Sunset showed some dominance. Man, he lit up some defenders at times and I love that
coming from my young OL. Keeping the interior intact probably is the way to go like you said and focus on Tackle. But SHRacer's thought
should be entertained just because Volson is so versatile.

(02-18-2023, 10:52 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am sure people's first reaction to any mention of Volson being moved from his LG position is bound to bring some venom.  Hear me out:

Volson has exceptional length.  He played RT more than any other position at NDSU.  He showed how quickly he could adapt to playing LG and had a really good rookie season.  He has probably added 10 pounds or so since joining the Bengals, putting him at 6'7" and 325 lbs.  He has nearly 34" arms as well and huge 10.5" mitts.

So, now you are asking...."Who is going to be the LG?".  Well, here are a couple guys that project to be available early in the 2nd round that look like really good prospects:

Rank
36
Steve Avila
Steve Avila
TCU · IOL · Senior (RS)
Avila is a physically imposing guard prospect with quick feet and power. In pass protection, he is quick out of his stance, chops his feet and delivers a strong two-hand punch. He anchors easily and looks for work when he's uncovered. He is very aware and has a nasty streak. In the run game, he runs his feet on contact and drives opponents off the line of scrimmage. He does a good job staying attached to blocks. If he loses his hand placement, he is quick to replace and recover. He is sudden as a puller and can unload when he stays on a single track. He has some issues when he has to adjust and redirect his feet in space. Overall, I love the size and temperament Avila possesses. He's going to be a solid starting guard right away at the next level.

Rank
37
O'Cyrus Torrence
O'Cyrus Torrence
Florida · IOL · Senior
Torrence is a massive offensive guard with ideal instincts and play strength. In pass protection, he can bend his knees and play with balance. He has an immediate anchor and provides plenty of space for his QB to climb up into the pocket. He has strong hands to latch and control. He is very aware versus twists and stunts. In the run game, he can create movement with defenders over his nose and has surprising quickness to reach and cut off foes. He is quick to the second level, but he struggles to redirect and adjust in space. That should improve if he can drop 10-to-15 pounds. Teams that want to run downhill and create a firm interior in the pass game will really appreciate Torrence.

This could allow the Bengals to acquire some extra draft capital by trading out of the first round and choose one of these guys in the 2nd round.  

I am just spit balling, but I really like the idea of giving him a shot at RT, his natural position.  Thoughts?

He played outstanding at LG and I would not disrupt that. What I would consider is drafting a LT, preferably Anton Harrison, and then having Jackson Carman compete with Collins for the RT position. I believe that Carman showed that he plays better in space than he does on the interior of the line and from the eye test was an upgrade over Jonah at LT.

(02-24-2023, 05:58 PM)OSUfan Wrote: He played outstanding at LG and I would not disrupt that. What I would consider is drafting a LT, preferably Anton Harrison, and then having Jackson Carman compete with Collins for the RT position. I believe that Carman showed that he plays better in space than he does on the interior of the line and from the eye test was an upgrade over Jonah at LT.

"Outstanding" is definitely far from the truth, or at least subjective based on your definition of the word.
Maybe "outstanding" if you're talking just being a rookie Day 3 pick who came from FCS.
But in regard to his actual performance for a starter, it was terrible for the first 1-2 months, and just ok by the end.
He's not a liability, but he's arguably the worst starter on the team when La'el Collins and Jonah Williams are healthy and performing at their normal levels.

The problem with Williams and Collins are health concerns, remainder of their contracts, and how consistent they can be at times.
Jonah has snaps of absolute brilliance but does allow a handful of sacks/pressures.
That's why when you look at things like PFF he is rated higher than some would expect - his highs and lows balance out, but most fans tend to really just notice the lows.

(02-24-2023, 08:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: "Outstanding" is definitely far from the truth, or at least subjective based on your definition of the word.
Maybe "outstanding" if you're talking just being a rookie Day 3 pick who came from FCS.
But in regard to his actual performance for a starter, it was terrible for the first 1-2 months, and just ok by the end.
He's not a liability, but he's arguably the worst starter on the team when La'el Collins and Jonah Williams are healthy and performing at their normal levels.

The problem with Williams and Collins are health concerns, remainder of their contracts, and how consistent they can be at times.
Jonah has snaps of absolute brilliance but does allow a handful of sacks/pressures.
That's why when you look at things like PFF he is rated higher than some would expect - his highs and lows balance out, but most fans tend to really just notice the lows.

Yes when I say outstanding I am speaking of as a rookie coming from an FCS school and pretty much learning a new position at the NFL level. You could watch him improve through the entire season and he has a great mentality for the task at hand.

When it comes to sacks given up 2020 was his best season with only 3 sacks but that was in only just over 600 snaps. '21 was 9 given up and last season he led the league with 12, which I guess you could call a handful for sure. Be it health or whatever we wish to attribute it to that is not getting the job done...period. At risk is your franchise QB. In less than 1000 snaps last season Collins gave up 5 sacks and had his lowest grade of any season outside of '16.

I have no problem looking to replace Williams or Collins.

(02-24-2023, 08:51 PM)OSUfan Wrote: Yes when I say outstanding I am speaking of as a rookie coming from an FCS school and pretty much learning a new position at the NFL level. You could watch him improve through the entire season and he has a great mentality for the task at hand.

When it comes to sacks given up 2020 was his best season with only 3 sacks but that was in only just over 600 snaps. '21 was 9 given up and last season he led the league with 12, which I guess you could call a handful for sure. Be it health or whatever we wish to attribute it to that is not getting the job done...period. At risk is your franchise QB. In less than 1000 snaps last season Collins gave up 5 sacks and had his lowest grade of any season outside of '16.

I have no problem looking to replace Williams or Collins.

I get it, and it's why I've called for adding another OT in the offseason, unless Volson would be moved to RT obviously.
I'm willing to give Volson more time to get into that "good starter", and I don't mind if he starts another couple more years.
As we've said, OT needs to get figured out.
Do that first and then potentially look to replace Volson.

(02-23-2023, 03:57 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Remember guys, our tackles has to block Myles Garret somehow.

You think we’re skeered? GASP! Come’er you…

(02-23-2023, 11:00 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What is likely most impressive about Volson's ability to win and hold the starting LG job as a rookie, is when you consider that he came from a non-FBS school and played for an offense that was overwhelmingly run heavy.

In 15 games in 2021 NDSU attempted a total of 257 passes (27.4% out of 935 plays).  Sure, Volson took some lumps early on as he caught up to the speed and complexities of the NFL game. Then, he grew into the role, and even showed some times of dominance.  If this guy improves on the same trajectory that he did as a rookie, he will likely be a star in the NFL.  

I would have no problem with Volson getting a look at RT this offseason.  However that does create a void at the LG spot, again.  Does the team really want to shuffle multiple positions again, or would they rather keep the interior OL in tact with Volson, Karras and Cappa?  Conventional logic says that it's easier to fix one position than two.

PFF has it as 883 total snaps, with 323 pass blocking and 560 run blocking.  Not sure which is right?  

It isn't as bad as people make it out to be.  Pass blocked about 37% of the snaps.  

He was incredible his senior year at NDSU playing RT.  He had 323 pass blocking snaps, had no sacks, and only gave up one hit.  

I keep coming back to Adeniji in comparison to Volson for RT.  (I know no one wants to go with Adeniji, but hear me out).  

Adeniji was forced in to some snaps at G, not the position he played his entire career in college.  He struggled BIG TIME.  He was flat out awful as a guard.  He played better at OT but really got abused in the AFCCG.  (To be fair, Jones abuses just about everyone).  But Adeniji was better at OT than guard.  No debate there.  Now, why can't the same be true for Volson?  He has already proven to be solid at LG, but if he can be even better at RT (his natural position), the Bengals might have found a real diamond in the rough.  At the very least, I would see him as a serious upgrade to Collins in pass protection.  

(02-24-2023, 10:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I get it, and it's why I've called for adding another OT in the offseason, unless Volson would be moved to RT obviously.
I'm willing to give Volson more time to get into that "good starter", and I don't mind if he starts another couple more years.
As we've said, OT needs to get figured out.
Do that first and then potentially look to replace Volson.

I would be curious to see where you feel Jackson Carman fits in? I personally feel he is meant to play on the edge in space and from the small sample we got in the playoffs I believe he could be a legit long term RT. Given the situation he was thrown into I felt he showed very well at LT. I know he played LT at the collegiate level but I saw him as an NFL RT since his senior season. 

The guy I have high hopes for was D'Ante Smith. I really felt he had a core skillset that could be developed into a high quality OT at the NFL level.

(02-25-2023, 10:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: PFF has it as 883 total snaps, with 323 pass blocking and 560 run blocking.  Not sure which is right?  

It isn't as bad as people make it out to be.  Pass blocked about 37% of the snaps.  

He was incredible his senior year at NDSU playing RT.  He had 323 pass blocking snaps, had no sacks, and only gave up one hit.  

I keep coming back to Adeniji in comparison to Volson for RT.  (I know no one wants to go with Adeniji, but hear me out).  

Adeniji was forced in to some snaps at G, not the position he played his entire career in college.  He struggled BIG TIME.  He was flat out awful as a guard.  He played better at OT but really got abused in the AFCCG.  (To be fair, Jones abuses just about everyone).  But Adeniji was better at OT than guard.  No debate there.  Now, why can't the same be true for Volson?  He has already proven to be solid at LG, but if he can be even better at RT (his natural position), the Bengals might have found a real diamond in the rough.  At the very least, I would see him as a serious upgrade to Collins in pass protection.  

Yeah I don't find it that far fetched that Volson could be an upgrade over Adeniji at RT lol

(02-25-2023, 12:49 PM)OSUfan Wrote: I would be curious to see where you feel Jackson Carman fits in? I personally feel he is meant to play on the edge in space and from the small sample we got in the playoffs I believe he could be a legit long term RT. Given the situation he was thrown into I felt he showed very well at LT. I know he played LT at the collegiate level but I saw him as an NFL RT since his senior season. 

The guy I have high hopes for was D'Ante Smith. I really felt he had a core skillset that could be developed into a high quality OT at the NFL level.

Carman just isn't comfortable on the right side, I would keep him on the left side. He looked pretty good at LT in the Playoffs.

True on D'Ante Smith, he clearly has more talent than Adeniji, he just had bad penalties at the worst times when he got a shot.

(02-25-2023, 10:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: PFF has it as 883 total snaps, with 323 pass blocking and 560 run blocking.  Not sure which is right?  

It isn't as bad as people make it out to be.  Pass blocked about 37% of the snaps.  

He was incredible his senior year at NDSU playing RT.  He had 323 pass blocking snaps, had no sacks, and only gave up one hit.  

I keep coming back to Adeniji in comparison to Volson for RT.  (I know no one wants to go with Adeniji, but hear me out).  

Adeniji was forced in to some snaps at G, not the position he played his entire career in college.  He struggled BIG TIME.  He was flat out awful as a guard.  He played better at OT but really got abused in the AFCCG.  (To be fair, Jones abuses just about everyone).  But Adeniji was better at OT than guard.  No debate there.  Now, why can't the same be true for Volson?  He has already proven to be solid at LG, but if he can be even better at RT (his natural position), the Bengals might have found a real diamond in the rough.  At the very least, I would see him as a serious upgrade to Collins in pass protection.  

Pass blocking 37% of the time is not much when most NFL teams are throwing 60%+ , though.

Another big issue is how many of those snaps were actual true pass sets?  NDSU's passing game is very heavy play action out of I-form with the TE in tight to at least help chip the DE.  It isn't an offense that's going to be giving up many sacks in general.  They allowed 13 sacks in '22 and 17 in '21.  

Adeniji's issue coming out of college was anchor/play strength.  Moving him inside to block bigger, stronger DT's is playing towards that weakness.  KC actually exploited it by putting Jones out on the edge against him on a number of snaps.  Volson's main issue is handling speed and athleticism.   

(02-24-2023, 11:04 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: You think we’re skeered? GASP! Come’er you…

Moving Volson to tackle tells me we don’t know who they have to block 2 games a year

(02-25-2023, 12:49 PM)OSUfan Wrote: I would be curious to see where you feel Jackson Carman fits in? I personally feel he is meant to play on the edge in space and from the small sample we got in the playoffs I believe he could be a legit long term RT. Given the situation he was thrown into I felt he showed very well at LT. I know he played LT at the collegiate level but I saw him as an NFL RT since his senior season. 

The guy I have high hopes for was D'Ante Smith. I really felt he had a core skillset that could be developed into a high quality OT at the NFL level.

I see Carman as a lottery ticket.  If he is dedicated this offseason, he could come in and try to steal the job away from Jonah.  Although the Bengals have been accused of playing those who they are paying, with Jonah's recent injury history and bad additional weight (that took away his strength, and didn't help his weakness at all) it could be a perfect time for Carman.

If Johan is 100% and comes in like he should in a contract year, Carman could push for RT.  If Carman comes in heavy and out of shape, he pretty much is back where we saw him in before that two game stint in the playoffs.

Smith has all the measurables, intangibles, the coaches love him but....he can't stay healthy.  Ever.  Now I hear he has some kind of asthmatic response affecting him. Just not reliable.  Too bad.  

(02-25-2023, 07:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah I don't find it that far fetched that Volson could be an upgrade over Adeniji at RT lol

I mean, all this crying about "screwing him up", by changing his position is just stupid.  He is a professional with a TON of snaps at RT.  Why did the Bengals put him at LG in the first place?  NEED!  It was the weak spot on an otherwise pretty solid line (we all had higher hopes for Collins).

Well, now the Bengals need a RT.  And the draft is littered with some solid Guards.  It just makes sense to me to at least look at it.  

(02-25-2023, 09:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: Pass blocking 37% of the time is not much when most NFL teams are throwing 60%+ , though.

Another big issue is how many of those snaps were actual true pass sets?  NDSU's passing game is very heavy play action out of I-form with the TE in tight to at least help chip the DE.  It isn't an offense that's going to be giving up many sacks in general.  They allowed 13 sacks in '22 and 17 in '21.  

Adeniji's issue coming out of college was anchor/play strength.  Moving him inside to block bigger, stronger DT's is playing towards that weakness.  KC actually exploited it by putting Jones out on the edge against him on a number of snaps.  Volson's main issue is handling speed and athleticism.   

That is based on some scouts projections.  He never had a problem with it in college at RT.  He consistently graded in the mid 80s to mid 90s in both run blocking and pass blocking.  We have never seen him attempt RT in the NFL.  RT generally deals more with the big rushers, and not speed anyways.  Watt is the exception to that and he destroyed everyone we put on him last year.  

The Bengals put Volson at LG because they had a need there with Carman struggling.  Entirely new position for him, and he was solid after a shaky start.  Now the Bengals have a huge need at RT and I want either a veteran or someone like Volson over a rookie at the end of round 1.  Can't afford another Oguehi.  

(02-26-2023, 11:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I mean, all this crying about "screwing him up", by changing his position is just stupid.  He is a professional with a TON of snaps at RT.  Why did the Bengals put him at LG in the first place?  NEED!  It was the weak spot on an otherwise pretty solid line (we all had higher hopes for Collins).

Well, now the Bengals need a RT.  And the draft is littered with some solid Guards.  It just makes sense to me to at least look at it.  

The draft is actually better at projected RTs than it is LTs. You can call others opinions crying or you could use perspective to look at the debate points. If there is a single area that needs consistency and cohesiveness it is the offensive line. As we have seen from players we have drafted it is not every OT at the collegiate level that can step in and play OG as well because they are very different animals it has nothing at all to do with being a pro. Carman struggled mightily at OG but looked right back at home instantly at OT. Adeniji was awful at OG but looked far better moving back outside.

Maybe it is not as much crying by others as it is about trying to fix what is not broke. Maybe the statements by others are not stupid rather looking at things with a bit less bias. 

(02-26-2023, 11:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: That is based on some scouts projections.  He never had a problem with it in college at RT.  He consistently graded in the mid 80s to mid 90s in both run blocking and pass blocking.  We have never seen him attempt RT in the NFL.  RT generally deals more with the big rushers, and not speed anyways.  Watt is the exception to that and he destroyed everyone we put on him last year.  

The Bengals put Volson at LG because they had a need there with Carman struggling.  Entirely new position for him, and he was solid after a shaky start.  Now the Bengals have a huge need at RT and I want either a veteran or someone like Volson over a rookie at the end of round 1.  Can't afford another Oguehi.  

So rather than moving Volson from the LG position and using your theory of them being "pros" why not leave Carman at LT where he looked mighty good in the playoffs and moving Jonah to RT since Collins may not be ready to start the season and he will not have to handle as many speed rushers as he would on the left side? I would be more onboard moving outside to outside rather than moving a player established on the inside to outside and hope it works out well and then have to find another player to move inside.

Who do you plan to move inside or do you plan to start this season again with another rookie inside?

(02-26-2023, 01:03 PM)OSUfan Wrote: The draft is actually better at projected RTs than it is LTs. You can call others opinions crying or you could use perspective to look at the debate points. If there is a single area that needs consistency and cohesiveness it is the offensive line. As we have seen from players we have drafted it is not every OT at the collegiate level that can step in and play OG as well because they are very different animals it has nothing at all to do with being a pro. Carman struggled mightily at OG but looked right back at home instantly at OT. Adeniji was awful at OG but looked far better moving back outside.

Maybe it is not as much crying by others as it is about trying to fix what is not broke. Maybe the statements by others are not stupid rather looking at things with a bit less bias. 

This is the big disconnect.  The problem has been, and still is, with the TACKLES on the offensive line.  And I didn't call anyone stupid, but the crying is pretty accurate when you describe that it will "screw him up" or "ruin him", when my point is he already proved he can adapt to a new position and exceed what just about everyone expected as a LG, that he could possibly do the same at RT.  

(02-26-2023, 01:20 PM)OSUfan Wrote: So rather than moving Volson from the LG position and using your theory of them being "pros" why not leave Carman at LT where he looked mighty good in the playoffs and moving Jonah to RT since Collins may not be ready to start the season and he will not have to handle as many speed rushers as he would on the left side? I would be more onboard moving outside to outside rather than moving a player established on the inside to outside and hope it works out well and then have to find another player to move inside.

Who do you plan to move inside or do you plan to start this season again with another rookie inside?

I thought of that as well, as Jonah played almost every position on the line, but for me Jonah has nowhere near the anchor he would need to survive on the right side.  People raved about his technique, his smarts, but never his anchor.  He put on some bad weight before this season likely in an effort to improve his anchor, but it backfired.  He lost some of his agility which was one of his strengths.  I think Carman is a better option than Williams at LT as it sits today, unless Jonah comes back from surgery a new man, but I don't see it happening.  Carman has an anchor.  

(02-26-2023, 11:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I mean, all this crying about "screwing him up", by changing his position is just stupid.  He is a professional with a TON of snaps at RT.  Why did the Bengals put him at LG in the first place?  NEED!  It was the weak spot on an otherwise pretty solid line (we all had higher hopes for Collins).

Well, now the Bengals need a RT.  And the draft is littered with some solid Guards.  It just makes sense to me to at least look at it.  

It would be different if Volson wasn't a versatile OL that played every position on the OL besides Center in college.

He isn't Jackson Carman who looks to be entirely a LT. And like you said, RT is Volson's natural position. Also RT deals with 
power more often than speed. Speed can give Volson problems, but he can handle power no problem. Your idea is not without
merit at all with La'el's injury. 

Would like to keep the interior the way it is, but it is so early. Need to keep our options open. It all depends on how the FA and
Draft are handled. If we trade for a LT like Bolles, Jonah should move to either LG or RT. Lots of ways things could go.

(02-26-2023, 11:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: That is based on some scouts projections.  He never had a problem with it in college at RT.  He consistently graded in the mid 80s to mid 90s in both run blocking and pass blocking.  We have never seen him attempt RT in the NFL.  RT generally deals more with the big rushers, and not speed anyways.  Watt is the exception to that and he destroyed everyone we put on him last year.  

The Bengals put Volson at LG because they had a need there with Carman struggling.  Entirely new position for him, and he was solid after a shaky start.  Now the Bengals have a huge need at RT and I want either a veteran or someone like Volson over a rookie at the end of round 1.  Can't afford another Oguehi.  

People will argue that Volson was that good because he was a man amongst boys at ND State but we all saw the NFL wasn't too big for him.

I want Darnell Wright, RT Tennessee, but if we go somewhere else we need to figure out the RT position. Volson helped out LG last year, maybe
he can help out RT this year, you never know.