(02-24-2023, 12:30 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: #1 has to be improving the Oline.  We have blown a chance to have two Super Bowl titles because of subpar O-lines.  It should be the top priority. We dont want to be here again next year saying the same thing over and over again.

Agree, what is nice is the interior is no longer the problem thankfully with Karras, Cappa and dare I say Volson.

Focus on the OT positions and we should be okay. Ignoring OT specifically the fact both La'el and Jonah are injury prone would
be a monumental mistake. La'el will not be 100% by the opener, no way.

(02-24-2023, 03:09 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I guess if we traded a mid rounder for Bolles a lot of this is possible. But it is going to eat up the cap just retaining our own.

Tee is the X-factor along with if Mixon's contract is restructured or we just cut him to free up cap space.

A lot of that is gonna be draft. 

If we can retain at least 2 of Bell ($9-10 mil), Pratt ($8 mil), and Hurst ($6 mil) I'd be thrilled. Perine for $3 would be fantastic. Apple gravy. If we miss on one guy, it makes it easier to keep the others, or use that $$ to fill one of our needs in FA which then gives us more draft freedom. 

In terms of OL, I do not think a plug & play LT will be available at 28, nor do we have the cash (likey) for a starter level guy. I think we play it out at LT with Jonah & Carman. But a low cost vet T in FA or Day 2 pick (Wright, Jones, Bergeron, Mauch) is on the table for me. As is taking Harrison, Torrence, or Schmitz late first. More likely Day 2-3 help on the inside (Avila, Wypler, Vorhees, etc). 

But my feeling is we win the KC game, even with the OL situation, if Boyd doesn't get hurt. We need a 4th weapon who can seperate. Someone who threatens the defense. Be it a WR, TE, or RB. 

(02-24-2023, 04:18 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: A lot of that is gonna be draft. 

If we can retain at least 2 of Bell ($9-10 mil), Pratt ($8 mil), and Hurst ($6 mil) I'd be thrilled. Perine for $3 would be fantastic. Apple gravy. If we miss on one guy, it makes it easier to keep the others, or use that $$ to fill one of our needs in FA which then gives us more draft freedom. 

In terms of OL, I do not think a plug & play LT will be available at 28, nor do we have the cash (likey) for a starter level guy. I think we play it out at LT with Jonah & Carman. But a low cost vet T in FA or Day 2 pick (Wright, Jones, Bergeron, Mauch) is on the table for me. As is taking Harrison, Torrence, or Schmitz late first. More likely Day 2-3 help on the inside (Avila, Wypler, Vorhees, etc). 

But my feeling is we win the KC game, even with the OL situation, if Boyd doesn't get hurt. We need a 4th weapon who can seperate. Someone who threatens the defense. Be it a WR, TE, or RB. 

I don't see Pratt being extended even if I would be for it. I see Bates and Pratt leaving. Bell, Hurst, Perine, Apple, Flowers coming back.

Agree on Jonah and Jackson playing it out at LT unless we bring either Bolles in a trade or wait and get Lewan on a 1 year prove it deal.

Cutting or restructuring Mixon's contract would help in getting a vet OT and that is the way to go in FA as we saw last year even if a 
couple of our guys got hurt late in the season, the OL was starting to play well before the injuries. This shown getting proven vets on the
OL is the way to go to our FO. I like all the OL you mention, but we all know it takes awhile for any rookie.

Rapien just said he would consider Bijan Robinson if he fell to 28 and I honestly cannot hate on the thought. Besides Mayer and LaPorta
at TE, who are some of the WR's or weapons you would like to take in this draft that can separate? 

I honestly have been concentrating on the trenches early more than weapons.

I have to think OT will be both a Free Agent and a Second Round pick. Also they may let Mixon go if Robinson is there because Robinson is a more rounded back (he can actually pass protect) and has better vision.

(02-24-2023, 04:48 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I don't see Pratt being extended even if I would be for it. I see Bates and Pratt leaving. Bell, Hurst, Perine, Apple, Flowers coming back.

Agree on Jonah and Jackson playing it out at LT unless we bring either Bolles in a trade or wait and get Lewan on a 1 year prove it deal.

Cutting or restructuring Mixon's contract would help in getting a vet OT and that is the way to go in FA as we saw last year even if a 
couple of our guys got hurt late in the season, the OL was starting to play well before the injuries. This shown getting proven vets on the
OL is the way to go to our FO. I like all the OL you mention, but we all know it takes awhile for any rookie.

Rapien just said he would consider Bijan Robinson if he fell to 28 and I honestly cannot hate on the thought. Besides Mayer and LaPorta
at TE, who are some of the WR's or weapons you would like to take in this draft that can separate? 

I honestly have been concentrating on the trenches early more than weapons.

Well, it depends in what round we are talking about. 

In my head, we are keeping Tee long term. Boyd, too, but that is more questionable. So WR is gonna be a depth piece this year and possible Boyd insurance down the road.  But with Chase's versatility, we coukd move him to slot if/when Boyd goes, so then youd want an outside guy. 

Anyway, I am not likely to take a WR late first, but under the right combination of how FA goes and what is available, I could do it. More likely in a trade back situation where we get an extra pick. But if I am at #28 and the only guy I think can be an immediate diffetence maker for us is a WR, I do it. 

Late 1st (ours) or early 2nd (trade down): I really like Flowers from BC and Hyatt from Tennessee. Flowers more. Both are elusive & speedy. We don't really have that element outside of Chase. It seems like an insane use of a 1st, given the receiving corps, and it kinda is, but I think it would change the whole dynamic of the offense. Bell, Hurst & Apple would need to be back, else I likely go CB or TE first. I'd go OL on day 2 for depth. 

Later on: 
Cedric Tillman, Tennessee (Irwin/Morgan upgrade (2nd-3rd)
Charles Jones, Purdue (Taylor upgrade) (3rd-5th) 
Jayden Reed, Michigan State (ditto), (4th-6th) 
Taylor Scott, Cincinnati (ditto). 
Parker Washington, Penn State (ditto) (3rd-5th)

Jones is the most polished but least athletic. 

Some of the raw, bigger guys are semi-intruiging later on. But those guys would need to start on ST and would be Morgan upgrades. 

Mingo (Mississippi), Elijah Higgins (Stanford), Iosivas (Princeton).

(02-24-2023, 03:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Agree, what is nice is the interior is no longer the problem thankfully with Karras, Cappa and dare I say Volson.

Focus on the OT positions and we should be okay. Ignoring OT specifically the fact both La'el and Jonah are injury prone would
be a monumental mistake. La'el will not be 100% by the opener, no way.

Im with you, I dont see how there is any way Collins is ready for the start of the football season.   Maybe he will be ready later in the season but how many games is he going to miss?  Collins is a big dude and that is going to be a lot of weight on his knee with all the pushing and twisting he will need to be doing at RT.  I cant see how there is anyway he doesnt miss a significant amount of time.  Currently that leaves us stuck with Adeniji at RT.  There is no way the Bengals organization lets that happen again.  They will make some kind of move either through free agency or the draft to address RT.  Personally, I would like to see a proven free agent brought in because you never know how your draft picks are going to pan out and the Bengals dont have a very good track record picking O line guys.

LT should be addressed too because Jonah isnt the answer.  He keeps getting injured and isnt that great protecting the QB even when he is healthy.  He cant withstand the bull rush without being pushed back in to Burrow and just isnt strong enough.  Carman is definitely stronger and showed some ability at LT but I think its too small of a sample size to count on him.  Its too bad we didnt see more of Carman last year at LT so we would have a better understanding of what he offers at that position.  The coaching staff may just roll with what they got and cross their fingers the LT position doesnt let us down again.  For me, I think it is a concern.

Volson needs to step up his game.  He played below average but did get better as the year went on and he was just a rookie so you cant judge him the same way you would judge the others.  Still this is going to be his second season and he is no longer a rookie so he needs to show some big improvement.  

(02-24-2023, 07:20 PM)Joelist Wrote: I have to think OT will be both a Free Agent and a Second Round pick. Also they may let Mixon go if Robinson is there because Robinson is a more rounded back (he can actually pass protect) and has better vision.

Feeling the same Joelist. It honestly makes sense and something I didn't foresee until Rapien brought it up. Adding a talent like 
Bijan Robinson while letting go Mixon and his contract while adding a couple OT's seems pretty much ideal to me.

(02-24-2023, 10:14 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Well, it depends in what round we are talking about. 

In my head, we are keeping Tee long term. Boyd, too, but that is more questionable. So WR is gonna be a depth piece this year and possible Boyd insurance down the road.  But with Chase's versatility, we coukd move him to slot if/when Boyd goes, so then youd want an outside guy. 

Anyway, I am not likely to take a WR late first, but under the right combination of how FA goes and what is available, I could do it. More likely in a trade back situation where we get an extra pick. But if I am at #28 and the only guy I think can be an immediate difference maker for us is a WR, I do it. 

Late 1st (ours) or early 2nd (trade down): I really like Flowers from BC and Hyatt from Tennessee. Flowers more. Both are elusive & speedy. We don't really have that element outside of Chase. It seems like an insane use of a 1st, given the receiving corps, and it kinda is, but I think it would change the whole dynamic of the offense. Bell, Hurst & Apple would need to be back, else I likely go CB or TE first. I'd go OL on day 2 for depth. 

Later on: 
Cedric Tillman, Tennessee (Irwin/Morgan upgrade (2nd-3rd)
Charles Jones, Purdue (Taylor upgrade) (3rd-5th) 
Jayden Reed, Michigan State (ditto), (4th-6th) 
Taylor Scott, Cincinnati (ditto). 
Parker Washington, Penn State (ditto) (3rd-5th)

Jones is the most polished but least athletic. 

Some of the raw, bigger guys are semi-intruiging later on. But those guys would need to start on ST and would be Morgan upgrades. 

Mingo (Mississippi), Elijah Higgins (Stanford), Iosivas (Princeton).

Nice. I think Boyd will leave and get big dough from somebody and good for him, will miss him. I think we need a speedster who 
can beat Secondary's on the outside as Chase plays fantastic in the Slot. I think Tee is back on an extension, seems this is a priority
big time from everything I have been hearing along with Burrow's monster deal of course.

I saw most of those WR's play last season, I think I like Hyatt the most. Never saw Flowers from Boston College.

A Tennessee early draft of Darnell Wright and Hyatt sure would make me happy.

(02-24-2023, 10:17 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Im with you, I dont see how there is any way Collins is ready for the start of the football season.   Maybe he will be ready later in the season but how many games is he going to miss?  Collins is a big dude and that is going to be a lot of weight on his knee with all the pushing and twisting he will need to be doing at RT.  I cant see how there is anyway he doesnt miss a significant amount of time.  Currently that leaves us stuck with Adeniji at RT.  There is no way the Bengals organization lets that happen again.  They will make some kind of move either through free agency or the draft to address RT.  Personally, I would like to see a proven free agent brought in because you never know how your draft picks are going to pan out and the Bengals dont have a very good track record picking O line guys.

LT should be addressed too because Jonah isnt the answer.  He keeps getting injured and isnt that great protecting the QB even when he is healthy.  He cant withstand the bull rush without being pushed back in to Burrow and just isnt strong enough.  Carman is definitely stronger and showed some ability at LT but I think its too small of a sample size to count on him.  Its too bad we didnt see more of Carman last year at LT so we would have a better understanding of what he offers at that position.  The coaching staff may just roll with what they got and cross their fingers the LT position doesnt let us down again.  For me, I think it is a concern.

Volson needs to step up his game.  He played below average but did get better as the year went on and he was just a rookie so you cant judge him the same way you would judge the others.  Still this is going to be his second season and he is no longer a rookie so he needs to show some big improvement.  

Damn rights, I doubt LC will be 100% until at the very least mid season so RT is a complete black hole right now. Adeniji played 
like shit when it mattered the most. This won't be ignored like back in the PA days. We will add a RT in FA or in a trade and in the 
draft somewhat early. Bolles is still the dude I want as he should be ready to go by TC. Volson is versatile so there are ways to go 
about it that we might not yet know, but I would like him to stay at LG just to keep continuity.

So true on Carman, dude looked good late in the year and in the Playoffs which gives me hope but you cannot rely on that.

Trading for Bolles and moving Jonah to RT where he HAS played before with Carman backing up the starters would be my plan 
right now and drafting a RT like Darnell Wright for the future. If La'el comes back ahead of the playoffs, great. But like you said,
he is a big dude, not like Awuzie. It will take much longer. We all saw how long it took Hopkins to come back from his ACL tear 
and he isn't as big as La'el.

(02-25-2023, 03:20 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Damn rights, I doubt LC will be 100% until at the very least mid season so RT is a complete black hole right now. Adeniji played 
like shit when it mattered the most. This won't be ignored like back in the PA days. We will add a RT in FA or in a trade and in the 
draft somewhat early. Bolles is still the dude I want as he should be ready to go by TC. Volson is versatile so there are ways to go 
about it that we might not yet know, but I would like him to stay at LG just to keep continuity.

So true on Carman, dude looked good late in the year and in the Playoffs which gives me hope but you cannot rely on that.

Trading for Bolles and moving Jonah to RT where he HAS played before with Carman backing up the starters would be my plan 
right now and drafting a RT like Darnell Wright for the future. If La'el comes back ahead of the playoffs, great. But like you said,
he is a big dude, not like Awuzie. It will take much longer. We all saw how long it took Hopkins to come back from his ACL tear 
and he isn't as big as La'el.

Just so we are on the same page, Boyd leaving is a 2024 thing, right? He is inked next/this year. 

As for RT, we still have 2 playable tackles even sans Collins. Move Jonah and let Carman have LT if you need to. Not ideal, but it is better than playing Adeniji. At least short term. We need to upgrade Adeniji/Smith and fill Scharping's slot. 2-3 OL moves via draft/FA, minimum. If we drafted a quality C (Schmitz, Wypler) we could move Karras to RG. Or at least have that option. 

EDIT: The Jonah & Collins contracts, along with Mixon's, are our biggest overpays. But Jonah is gonna be here, his contract demands it. I believe cutting Collins now is tricky due to his injury. Further, it creates another hole and does not save THAT much $$ ($6 mil - injury settlement he has no incentive to agree to). Mixon is popular, and Robinson ain't gonna be there at #28.

But this is likely it for all 3. Next year, Jonah's $12.6 will be off the books. We can save $10 mil by declining Mixon's option, and $7 by waving Collins. A lot of that $30 mil will get eaten by extensions/new deals for Tee and Reader (and maybe Wilson & Boyd).

Cost effective replacements are certainly needed. I lean towards a cost effective vet (LT) or day 2 pick (Wright, Jones). I would be fairly aggressive this year to trade up in Rd 2 to go get Wright. And next year in Rd1 to get a LT if Carman/Jonah don't seem like long term solutions or if Lewan does not fall into our laps & stay healthy.

(02-25-2023, 04:02 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Just so we are on the same page, Boyd leaving is a 2024 thing, right? He is inked next/this year. 

As for RT, we still have 2 playable tackles even sans Collins. Move Jonah and let Carman have LT if you need to. Not ideal, but it is better than playing Adeniji. At least short term. We need to upgrade Adeniji/Smith and fill Scharping's slot. 2-3 OL moves via draft/FA, minimum. If we drafted a quality C (Schmitz, Wypler) we could move Karras to RG. Or at least have that option. 

EDIT: The Jonah & Collins contracts, along with Mixon's, are our biggest overpays. But Jonah is gonna be here, his contract demands it. I believe cutting Collins now is tricky due to his injury. Further, it creates another hole and does not save THAT much $$ ($6 mil - injury settlement he has no incentive to agree to). Mixon is popular, and Robinson ain't gonna be there at #28.

But this is likely it for all 3. Next year, Jonah's $12.6 will be off the books. We can save $10 mil by declining Mixon's option, and $7 by waving Collins. A lot of that $30 mil will get eaten by extensions/new deals for Tee and Reader (and maybe Wilson & Boyd).

Cost effective replacements are certainly needed. I lean towards a cost effective vet (LT) or day 2 pick (Wright, Jones). I would be fairly aggressive this year to trade up in Rd 2 to go get Wright. And next year in Rd1 to get a LT if Carman/Jonah don't seem like long term solutions or if Lewan does not fall into our laps & stay healthy.

Yeah, after this year I think Boyd will move on. Same with Jonah, we picked up his option and it is only for 1 year. 

Moving Jonah to RT this year almost seems like a no brainer honestly with La'el's injuries. He has played there before and Carman 
seems to only be comfortable on the left side and particularly at LT. Avila is also an option in the 2nd round and he can play Center 
if we want to add to the interior. Believe Karras has only played Center and LG, shouldn't move Cappa at all. He stays at RG.

For some reason D'Ante Smith just hasn't lived up to his potential, pretty sad when Adeniji is ahead of him. Really wanting Darnell 
Wright at 28, seems the perfect player to fill in at RT for the future, big physical Tackle with quick feet and good hands.

These are 3 things we NEED to do:

1. Sign or draft a new day 1 Right Tackle. La'El Collins was not disastrous when he played, but he was clearly playing injured all season and is now dealing with a new injury as well. Even before the injury, we could stand to upgrade him and Adeniji has shown in consecutive post seasons that he is just not a suitable replacement, even in emergency scenarios. If this means going out and spending big money for Jawaan Taylor or Mike McGlinchey, so be it. GET. IT. DONE. I'm tired of having this conversation every ***** off season. Fix the Oline and we win a Super Bowl. It's not a coincidence that the two teams in the Super Bowl had top 5 Olines. Picking late in the first round means we probably miss out on the blue chip prospects, but if they believe Darnell Wright, Anton Harrison or Dawand Jones can be the day 1 RT, that should be the pick assuming we don't address it in free agency.

2. Re-sign Vonn Bell. We should not be going into the 2023 NFL season with two new starting safeties. It's stressful enough losing Jessie Bates and having to rely on Dax Hill, someone who got almost no playing time in his first NFL season. We cannot have a 1st year starter standing next to a brand new (likely bargain) free agent, and we definitely don't want Dax to be standing next to a rookie. The safeties, in a lot of ways, are the QBs of the defense and we need quality veteran leadership back there. Bates is gone because he's asking for top shelf safety money and we just can't afford that with Burrow, Higgins and Chase all coming due soon. But as long as Bell is a semi-reasonable price (under 10M AAV), we need to make sure he stays in the Queen City.  

3. Extend Joe Burrow. I don't think this needs to be expounded upon too much. The sooner you do it, the cheaper it is. Mahomes' contract was crazy 3 years ago, but now it's a bargain. Burrow is likely going to cost 5 to 7 million dollars more per year than Mahomes, but if you wait until next year, it could be 10M more. The sooner the ink dries, the better.

These are 3 things we SHOULD do.

1. Restructure or cut Joe Mixon. He just makes way too much money for what he offers. You could get 3.9 ypc out of a 4th round rookie and they may even be a better pass blocker than Mixon. He is a good power runner who can occasionally break a big one, but that isn't our offense anymore and we need to embrace the speedy RB that can take a check down 30 yards archetype of running back.

2. Extend Tee Higgins. The team and people around the team, including the players themselves, seem confident that the team can work out a deal to keep Burrow, Higgins and Chase around long term. That may mean structuring the deals so that their respective cap hits balloon and shrink relative to each other (one year, Higgins has the big cap hit which allows his other years to be smaller, Burrow has a similar big cap hit in a subsequent year). If this doesn't happen this off season, you could always franchise tag him and then decide whether you want to extend him, trade him or just have 1 final year with him and plan accordingly in the draft and free agency (as we did with Bates). So it isn't a must do item, but if they can make it happen, they should do it this year.

3. Sign a veteran pass rusher who is looking for a ring. You got Robert Quinn, Jadaveon Clowney, Akiem Hicks, Melvin Ingram, Justin Houston, Jason Pierre Paul, Jarran Reed, and Anthony Barr as 30+ year old pass rushers who are likely looking for a ring. See if any would like to come in on a 1 year deal for relatively cheap. Many of them are coming off of down years as well, so that could be prove it deals, like Hurst was this past season. There are also options like Yannick Ngakoue and Larry Ogunjobi, who are younger but may be hunting for a ring as well. I don't want to break the bank here, but a situational pass rusher would be greatly appreciated in 2023. I would mention Brandon Graham here, but he's currently on a Super Bowl contending team, so that pitch wouldn't work on him haha.

And finally 3 things that would be nice, but it would depend on the price.

1. Re-sign Hayden Hurst. But only if he's asking for a reasonable AAV. That prediction from PFF (3 years, 28.5M) was insane and if that's what he wants let him walk. But if he is looking for something in the 5 to 6M AAV range, I think it's worth re-signing him. He played his role well and, while he is not a game changing tight end by any means, he's got some speed to him and reliable hands. He's a decent starting TE in the NFL and we currently have zero TEs on the roster so...

2. Re-sign Germaine Pratt. But only if he's asking for under 10M AAV. Opposite the situation of Hurst, PFF's prediction was actually fairly reasonable for Pratt at 3 years, 24.75 M. I think Pratt showed that he's worth 8.25M AAV and it would keep our defense that played so clutch so often (Pratt was a key member of the KC win via the Kelce Fumble and the Baltimore playoff win because he stood up the QB sneak that went for Hubbard's touchdown). Pratt also had a clutch interception against Brady. He's definitely earned a raise. The only concern I have here is if we sign Pratt, do we let Wilson walk? Can we only afford one of the two? If so, you could convince me that Wilson is more important to the defense overall since he plays all 3 downs consistently.

3. Re-sign Samaje Perine. But only if he's asking for under 3M AAV. He is not a starter in the NFL and we should not treat him as such, but if he wants to re-up with the team as the 3rd down back who can sub in for a game or two here and there, I think 3M AAV is a feasible landing spot for both camps. It's nearly doubling his salary from the last 2 years while still keeping the position as a whole at an acceptable cost. This would kind of tie into the Mixon decision, as I don't know if you want to keep both of them. We really should implement a thunder and lightning approach in our backfield, not a thunder thunder backfield. So if we keep Perine, draft a speedy RB and cut Mixon. If we keep Mixon, draft a speedy RB and don't re-sign Perine. I don't think these two should remain on the team together.

Beyond that, draft for BPA and sign whatever free agents may be slipping through the cracks and just need a 1 year deal to get to the next free agency period. See if you can't fit a CB, TE and DT in the draft somewhere. But this team doesn't have a ton of needs and we're really just going to be fine tuning from here on out. It should be an exciting off season, but I'm not expecting anything close to the last 3 off seasons where we were signing key free agents on the first day of free agency. This should be a more low key free agency period, similar to what we got used to when Lewis was our head coach (but in a good way this time haha).

(02-25-2023, 06:01 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: These are 3 things we NEED to do:

1. Sign or draft a new day 1 Right Tackle. La'El Collins was not disastrous when he played, but he was clearly playing injured all season and is not dealing with a new injury as well. Even before the injury, we could stand to upgrade him and Adeniji has shown in consecutive post seasons that he is just not a suitable replacement, even in emergency scenarios. If this means going out and spending big money for Jawaan Taylor or Mike McGlinchey, so be it. GET. IT. DONE. I'm tired of having this conversation every ***** off season. Fix the Oline and we win a Super Bowl. It's not a coincidence that the two teams in the Super Bowl had top 5 Olines. Picking late in the first round means we probably miss out on the blue chip prospects, but if they believe Darnell Wright, Anton Harrison or Dawand Jones can be the day 1 RT, that should be the pick assuming we don't address it in free agency.

2. Re-sign Vonn Bell. We should not be going into the 2023 NFL season with two new starting safeties. It's stressful enough losing Jessie Bates and having to rely on Dax Hill, someone who got almost no playing time in his first NFL season. We cannot have a 1st year player standing next to a brand new (likely bargain) free agent, and we definitely don't want Dax to be standing next to a rookie. The safeties, in a lot of ways, are the QBs of the defense and we need quality veteran leadership back there. Bates is gone because he's asking for top shelf safety money and we just can't afford that with Burrow, Higgins and Chase all coming due soon. But as long as Bell is a semi-reasonable price (under 10M AAV), we need to make sure he stays in the Queen City.  

3. Extend Joe Burrow. I don't think this needs to be expounded upon too much. The sooner you do it, the cheaper it is. Mahomes' contract was crazy 3 years ago, but now it's a bargain. Burrow is likely going to cost 5 to 7 million dollars more per year than Mahomes, but if you wait until next year, it could be 10M more. The sooner the ink dries, the better.

These are 3 things we SHOULD do.

1. Restructure or cut Joe Mixon. He just makes way too much money for what he offers. You could get 3.9 ypc out of a 4th round rookie and they may even be a better pass blocker than Mixon. He is a good power runner who can occasionally break a big one, but that isn't our offense anymore and we need to embrace the speedy RB that can take a check down 30 yards archetype of running back.

2. Extend Tee Higgins. The team and people around the team, including the players themselves, seem confident that the team can work out a deal to keep Burrow, Higgins and Chase around long term. That may mean structuring the deals so that their respective cap hits balloon and shrink relative to each other (one year, Higgins has the big cap hit which allows his other years to be smaller, Burrow has a similar big cap hit in a subsequent year). If this doesn't happen this off season, you could always franchise tag him and then decide whether you want to extend him, trade him or just have 1 final year with him and plan accordingly in the draft and free agency (as we did with Bates). So it isn't a must do item, but if they can make it happen, they should do it this year.

3. Sign a veteran pass rusher who is looking for a ring. You got Robert Quinn, Jadaveon Clowney, Akiem Hicks, Melvin Ingram, Justin Houston, Jason Pierre Paul, Jarran Reed, and Anthony Barr as 30+ year old pass rushers who are likely looking for a ring. See if any would like to come in on a 1 year deal for relatively cheap. Many of them are coming off of down years as well, so that could be prove it deals, like Hurst was this past season. There are also options like Yannick Ngakoue and Larry Ogunjobi, who are younger but may be hunting for a ring as well. I don't want to break the bank here, but a situational pass rusher would be greatly appreciated in 2023. I would mention Brandon Graham here, but he's currently on a Super Bowl contending team, so that pitch wouldn't work on him haha.

And finally 3 things that would be nice, but it would depend on the price.

1. Re-sign Hayden Hurst. But only if he's asking for a reasonable AAV. That prediction from PFF (3 years, 28.5M) was insane and if that's what he wants let him walk. But if he is looking for something in the 5 to 6M AAV range, I think it's worth re-signing him. He played his role well and, while he is not a game changing tight end by any means, he's got some speed to him and reliable hands. He's a decent starting TE in the NFL and we currently have zero TEs on the roster so...

2. Re-sign Germaine Pratt. But only if he's asking for under 10M AAV. Opposite the situation of Hurst, PFF's prediction was actually fairly reasonabl for Pratt at 3 years, 24.75 M. I think Pratt showed that he's worth 8.25M AAV and it would keep our defense that played so clutch so often (Pratt was a key member of the KC win via the Kelce Fumble and the Baltimore playoff win because he stood up the QB sneak that went for Hubbard's touchdown). Pratt also had a clutch interception against Brady. He's definitely earned a raise. The only concern I have here is if we sign Pratt, do we let Wilson walk? Can we only afford one of the two? If so, you could convince me that Wilson is more important to the defense overall since he plays all 3 downs consistently.

3. Re-sign Samaje Perine. But only if he's asking for under 3M AAV. He is not a starter in the NFL and we should not treat him as such, but if he wants to re-up with the team as the 3rd down back who can sub in for a game or two here and there, I think 3M AAV is a feasible landing spot for btoh camps. It's nearly doubling his salary from the last 2 years while still keeping the position as a whole at an acceptable cost. This would kind of tie into the Mixon decision, as I don't know if you want to keep both of them. We really should implement a thunder and lightning approach in our backfield, not a thunder thunder backfield. So if we keep Perine, draft a speedy RB and cut Mixon. If we keep Mixon, draft a speedy RB and don't re-sign Perine. I don't think these two should remain on the team together.

Beyond that, draft for BPA and sign whatever free agents may be slipping through the cracks and just need a 1 year deal to get to the next free agency period. See if you can't fit a CB, TE and DT in the draft somewhere. But this team doesn't have a ton of needs and we're really just going to be fine tuning from here on out. It should be an exciting off season, but I'm not expecting anything close to the last 3 off seasons where we were signing key free agents on the first day of free agency. This should be a more low key free agency period, similar to what we got used to when Lewis was our head coach (but in a good way this time haha).

Nice post CJD. Cannot really disagree with anything, just think Logan Wilson is the future at LB and Pratt leaves for big money.

Hopefully in the NFC lol

It is ADG's time IMO. Bailey ain't no punk either and is underrated. Just does what is asked of him. Bettcher has done well with 
our LB's. All for bringing back Ogunjobi, he is over the injury now. Would be awesome if he only gave his best years to us and not
the stealers or stains. Need a 3-tech to collapse the middle of the OL in pass rushing situations. I like BJ Hill but he is a better run 
stopper and not an elite pass rusher, at least not from what we saw last year.

Mazi Smith is an option at 28 if he makes it to us as well.

Also like the idea of adding an older End chasing a ring like the ones you spoke of. Hicks or Houston would be awesome.

(02-25-2023, 04:02 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Just so we are on the same page, Boyd leaving is a 2024 thing, right? He is inked next/this year. 

As for RT, we still have 2 playable tackles even sans Collins. Move Jonah and let Carman have LT if you need to. Not ideal, but it is better than playing Adeniji. At least short term. We need to upgrade Adeniji/Smith and fill Scharping's slot. 2-3 OL moves via draft/FA, minimum. If we drafted a quality C (Schmitz, Wypler) we could move Karras to RG. Or at least have that option. 

EDIT: The Jonah & Collins contracts, along with Mixon's, are our biggest overpays. But Jonah is gonna be here, his contract demands it. I believe cutting Collins now is tricky due to his injury. Further, it creates another hole and does not save THAT much $$ ($6 mil - injury settlement he has no incentive to agree to). Mixon is popular, and Robinson ain't gonna be there at #28.

But this is likely it for all 3. Next year, Jonah's $12.6 will be off the books. We can save $10 mil by declining Mixon's option, and $7 by waving Collins. A lot of that $30 mil will get eaten by extensions/new deals for Tee and Reader (and maybe Wilson & Boyd).

Cost effective replacements are certainly needed. I lean towards a cost effective vet (LT) or day 2 pick (Wright, Jones). I would be fairly aggressive this year to trade up in Rd 2 to go get Wright. And next year in Rd1 to get a LT if Carman/Jonah don't seem like long term solutions or if Lewan does not fall into our laps & stay healthy.

The have options with Collins:

They can cut him anytime before August 1st, but it would reduce the cap savings from 6m to about 4.8m.
They can wait until training camp to see how he looks, and attempt an injury an injury settlement if they don't like where he's at.
They can wait until final preseason cuts and just release him outright, with no cap penalty or settlement needed.
Or, they can just decide to keep him around, even if he has to start out on IR and be designated for return.

Personally, I'd rather just cut him and use the 4.8m on Eluemunor, who is projected to ger 3.5-4m. If Matt Feiler is cut as expected, I would make a play for him as well. That gives you 2 veterans that can play RT, LG and RG if needed. If Feiler can't be had, then maybe Beachum, Fant or Fleming. I don't want to see anymore of Adeniji or Sharping.

If Jonah is healthy going into next season, I expect him to have a good rebound year and hopefully Volson can improve from his rookie season. 

I think you have to cut Mixon. The decision pretty much makes itself. He's far too inconsistent and is a liability in protection. You can't pay a guy almost 13m when you can't trust him to be on the field in crucial situations. 

(02-25-2023, 06:01 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: These are 3 things we NEED to do:

1. Sign or draft a new day 1 Right Tackle. La'El Collins was not disastrous when he played, but he was clearly playing injured all season and is not dealing with a new injury as well. Even before the injury, we could stand to upgrade him and Adeniji has shown in consecutive post seasons that he is just not a suitable replacement, even in emergency scenarios. If this means going out and spending big money for Jawaan Taylor or Mike McGlinchey, so be it. GET. IT. DONE. I'm tired of having this conversation every ***** off season. Fix the Oline and we win a Super Bowl. It's not a coincidence that the two teams in the Super Bowl had top 5 Olines. Picking late in the first round means we probably miss out on the blue chip prospects, but if they believe Darnell Wright, Anton Harrison or Dawand Jones can be the day 1 RT, that should be the pick assuming we don't address it in free agency.

Yup
We've watched two deep playoff runs end because our Oline spit the bit. Yes injuries I know. BUT- we have to get the Oline in a better place. Like you say we have to get better depth than Adeniji. 
Fix the glaring problem, no band-aids. FIX IT

(02-25-2023, 04:02 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Mixon is popular, and Robinson ain't gonna be there at #28.

Give me D'Ernest Johnson and Justice Hill at a low cost (Johnson is projected $2.6m/yr, Hill should be similar), use a late round pick for more RB depth and just go committee. Neither can be a bellcow headline guy, but I think they'll combine for the majority of a pretty decent committee and that's all the Bengals really need. Admittedly I don't know the blocking skill of either, but it can't be worse than Mixon.

(02-25-2023, 03:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Feeling the same Joelist. It honestly makes sense and something I didn't foresee until Rapien brought it up. Adding a talent like 
Bijan Robinson while letting go Mixon and his contract while adding a couple OT's seems pretty much ideal to me.


Nice. I think Boyd will leave and get big dough from somebody and good for him, will miss him. I think we need a speedster who 
can beat Secondary's on the outside as Chase plays fantastic in the Slot. I think Tee is back on an extension, seems this is a priority
big time from everything I have been hearing along with Burrow's monster deal of course.

I saw most of those WR's play last season, I think I like Hyatt the most. Never saw Flowers from Boston College.

A Tennessee early draft of Darnell Wright and Hyatt sure would make me happy.

Next year? Boyd is under contract for this coming year. 

I don't know about Hyatt...he works in a very gimmicky offense and i don't know how developed his route tree is, if at all. He has physical gifts for sure but he probably needs work to run an NFL offense. A sleeper i'd like to take a run at late on day 2 would be Dontayvion Wicks. He had a really nice 2021 before dropping off big time last year, but i don't think that had as much to do with him as it did the team. The way he moves reminds me of Chase. 

(02-25-2023, 06:55 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nice post CJD. Cannot really disagree with anything, just think Logan Wilson is the future at LB and Pratt leaves for big money.

Hopefully in the NFC lol

It is ADG's time IMO. Bailey ain't no punk either and is underrated. Just does what is asked of him. Bettcher has done well with 
our LB's. All for bringing back Ogunjobi, he is over the injury now. Would be awesome if he only gave his best years to us and not
the stealers or stains. Need a 3-tech to collapse the middle of the OL in pass rushing situations. I like BJ Hill but he is a better run 
stopper and not an elite pass rusher, at least not from what we saw last year.

Mazi Smith is an option at 28 if he makes it to us as well.

Also like the idea of adding an older End chasing a ring like the ones you spoke of. Hicks or Houston would be awesome.

Great post. 

A small quibble on a thing or two, but not much. 

I'd add in getting another weapon on O. WR, TE, RB. We need more speed & elusiveness.  I'll go to my grave thinking we win that KC game if Boyd is healthy. Morgan, Taylor, Wilcox, Asiasi, and Sample are not threats catching the ball. And Irwin isn't much of one. Perine is a screen/flat only guy. Ditto Mixon. Evans fits the bill, but is usually inactive. 

Be it draft or a vet ring chaser. Last year, I think the league doubted us. Going toe to toe at Arrowhead (again) missing 3 OL starters and TB & losing on an OIB penalty, there is no doubt now. 

(02-25-2023, 07:15 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Give me D'Ernest Johnson and Justice Hill at a low cost (Johnson is projected $2.6m/yr, Hill should be similar), use a late round pick for more RB depth and just go committee. Neither can be a bellcow headline guy, but I think they'll combine for the majority of a pretty decent committee and that's all the Bengals really need. Admittedly I don't know the blocking skill of either, but it can't be worse than Mixon.

I think there's actually a decent chance that if the Chiefs waive Clyde Edwards-Helaire as speculated, that the Bengals would claim him if they have the opportunity.

(02-25-2023, 07:40 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I think there's actually a decent chance that if the Chiefs waive Clyde Edwards-Helaire as speculated, that the Bengals would claim him if they have the opportunity.

I could see them attempt that reunion but his lack of durability is more than a bit concerning for me. Three ankle injuries, a knee injury, a hip injury, and a shoulder injury in 3 NFL seasons. Including the postseason he's missed 4, 8, and 10 games in each respective year of his career. That's a ton of games, and it's increasing each year.

(02-03-2023, 01:00 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: So.....

The guy that has given up the most sacks over the last 2 years is somehow ranked 14th-24th in terms of left tackles?  Explain that one to me.

I wouldn't call myself a Jonah Williams fan - in fact, I am pretty disappointed that we spent a near top 10 pick on a left tackle that was athletically and physically limited - but that's besides the point. The sack number is high, but he pressure rate is right around where it needs to be:

Here's why "sacks" are just not that useful anymore. Pressure rate allowed on True Pass Sets in '22 with sacks allowed:

T. Pipkins - 7.9% (3)
D. Dawkins - 8.0% (3)
C. Fleming - 8.1% (6)
Jonah Williams - 8.2% (10)
C. Okorafor - 8.3% (2)
T. Steele - 8.4% (1)
T. Howard - 8.6% (2)

— Andrew Russell (@Andrew_Russell7) February 23, 2023

 


You could attribute to sacks to a number of things: 
1. Bad luck. As in, the times that he is beat, the play that was called just happens to have been a longer running play whereas if Cleming or Steele gave up that same pressure, the play mau have happened to be a quick out.
2. Bad scheme. As in, he was left on an island too much compared to these other tackles which caused he pressures allowed to turn into sacks allowed more often.
3. Joe Burrow trying to make a play. We all know Burrow takes more sacks than he needs to because he's trying to make something happen. He's said so multiple times in the past that he doesn't really care about getting sacked on third down if they aren't in field goal range. So protecting Burrow compared to protecting Derek Carr may inflate your sacks allowed.
4. He has to play against Myles Garrett twice a year and the Steelers' defense twice a year, which will just naturally increase the number of sacks he allows because they both have elite pass rushers.
5. He was playing injured (dislocated kneecap) and didn't miss any time (until the second dislocated kneecap). I'm impressed that he played through the first one, so I'm willing to forgive at least a portion of his poor play this season.


I think Williams is a perfectly average LT. I would love it if we could replace him. The problem is replacing a left tackle is either expensive or requires heavy draft capital. You could find one later in the draft, but it's rare.

Top OTs in PFF WAR since '21 with draft round:

Trent Williams - 1st
Jordan Mailata - 7th
Lane Johnson - 1st
Andrew Thomas - 1st
Tristan Wirfs - 1st
Penei Sewell - 1st
Brian O'Neil - 2nd
Ryan Ramczyk - 1st
Rob Havenstein - 2nd
Kolton Miller - 1st

Draft your tackles early imo.

— Andrew Russell (@Andrew_Russell7) February 21, 2023

 

There may come a time in the near future where we have to trade up to get that premier LT prospect in the draft or we'll need to spend 18 to 20M AAV on a LT in free agency. They don't grow on trees after all.


When it comes to problems on this Oline, I think LG and RT are, by far, the biggest areas of concern. If they fix RT and Volson develops, we'll have a solid front 5 with Williams starting.