(03-05-2023, 06:20 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Sooner:
I disagree that lots of of teams missed on Mahomes. he went #10.  Ahead of him was Miles Garrett, Christian McCaffrey, Mike Williams, Jamal Adams, Fournette.  The Bears did choose Tribisky.

Pacheco was a much more proven commodity than Evans.  I will never get that draft selection.

I would bet that no team has been as abysmal drafting oline in the last decade as us.



My Friend Isaac Curtis:

I appreciate your list and it is difficult to read when our kicker is tiers above all others.

KC in the last 3 drafts:

2022
4th Williams - played 17 games
7th Watson - played 16 games
7th Pacheco - played 17 games
7th Johnson - played 11 games

2021
6th OL Smith - starter for 2 seasons 72 PFF grade both seasons

2020
4the Snead - started 38 games in 3 years, very good player

Normally games played/started isnt the most impressive stat, but when the team is in the AFC title game every year and wins a SB...

We have had

Volson - 53 PFF score

MoneyMac - awesome

No other starters in the last 3 seasons.  2 out of 14 starters in last 3 years.


KC is miles ahead of us when it comes to drafting.

We are pretty solid on finding quality "2nd tier guys", our defensive coaching has become excellent, Burrow and Chase are likely more exceptional that we even think.

But my concern is moving forward with the new big contracts, we have to do better identifying talented players deeper in the draft.

We gotten starter production from 2 players out of 6 last draft.

We've gotten starter production from 2 players out 10 in 2 years from the draft before.  I will add Ossai and Sample are coming on...

We've gotten production from our top 3 picks in 2020, ADG has potential, Adeniji obviously has video on Mike Brown doing something...


We need to identify that Trey Smith in the 6th, Pacheco in the 7th, Snead in the 4th. 

Volson and Lawson are the only 2 starting 4th rounders we have had since Boling. 
 
4th rounders:
Shelvin
Smith
Billings
Finley
Wren
Jordan
Walton
Malone
Glasgow
Westerman
Bodine
Porter
Charles
Shaw
Hardison

Outside of Lawson & Cordell, ADG  is the superstar of the 4th round since 2011. We must do better.







 

Oh come on Caesar. We’ve killed it. Look at all our All Pros.

(03-05-2023, 06:34 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Oh come on Caesar. We’ve killed it. Look at all our All Pros.

Been rough sledding brother.  

I get having a miss or injuries (Fisher).  Taking chances like Ogbbuehi with DJ Humphries sitting there?  Carmen over Creed, Cosmi and Banks...


The bad thing is, it doesn't matter where we draft them, we are still terrible.  

1st Rounders since 2009
Billy Price
Cedric Ogbuehi

2nd Rounders since 2012
Carmen
Fischer

The new oline evaluator/additional oline coach came on board after this past offseason right?   We can hope he does better.

(03-05-2023, 06:49 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Been rough sledding brother.  

I get having a miss or injuries (Fisher).  Taking chances like Ogbbuehi with DJ Humphries sitting there?  Carmen over Creed, Cosmi and Banks...


The bad thing is, it doesn't matter where we draft them, we are still terrible.  

1st Rounders since 2009
Billy Price
Cedric Ogbuehi

2nd Rounders since 2012
Carmen
Fischer

The new oline evaluator/additional oline coach came on board after this past offseason right?   We can hope he does better.

I was being facetious as hell. It’s awful

(03-05-2023, 07:05 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I was being facetious as hell. It’s awful

Trust me I knew what you were saying.  If Jonah is healthy, the only one I am truly concerned about is LC.  I dont see him back in time, and even if he is, the back, the knee.....?  We also need Volsen to take the next step.

May be hard for some to believe but I saw some guys on TV today that could upgrade our LG spot.

(03-05-2023, 07:13 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Trust me I knew what you were saying.  If Jonah is healthy, the only one I am truly concerned about is LC.  I dont see him back in time, and even if he is, the back, the knee.....?  We also need Volsen to take the next step.

Agree on Collins and even when he does make it back with all the back issues he already has and now along with the knee. How many games can he stay on the field. Moreover, his pass pro wasn't the greatest even when he was somewhat healthy last season. That knee isn't going to help against speed rushers I'm sure. I just have a hard time believing Collins is the answer at RT next season.

Williams I have doubts about as well. I'm not fully convinced he's a long term answer at LT. I'm hoping he comes back healthy and returns to what was it 2021 he played fairly well? 

Volson I'm on the fence about. He had stretches where he was decent. And a few games where he wasn't all that great. And I'm throwing out the first couple games. I'm hoping he steps it up this season. But I'm not opposed to an upgrade, at all.

(03-05-2023, 07:05 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I was being facetious as hell. It’s awful

I thought it was sarcastic as hell. 

(03-05-2023, 07:13 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Trust me I knew what you were saying.  If Jonah is healthy, the only one I am truly concerned about is LC.  I dont see him back in time, and even if he is, the back, the knee.....?  We also need Volsen to take the next step.

All true.

(03-05-2023, 07:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: May be hard for some to believe but I saw some guys on TV today that could upgrade our LG spot.

Would love Avila, I just think the coaches are happy with Volson there even if you aren't Bfine lol

(03-05-2023, 07:42 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agree on Collins and even when he does make it back with all the back issues he already has and now along with the knee. How many games can he stay on the field. Moreover, his pass pro wasn't the greatest even when he was somewhat healthy last season. That knee isn't going to help against speed rushers I'm sure. I just have a hard time believing Collins is the answer at RT next season.

Williams I have doubts about as well. I'm not fully convinced he's a long term answer at LT. I'm hoping he comes back healthy and returns to what was it 2021 he played fairly well? 

Volson I'm on the fence about. He had stretches where he was decent. And a few games where he wasn't all that great. And I'm throwing out the first couple games. I'm hoping he steps it up this season. But I'm not opposed to an upgrade, at all.

Yeah, LC might never be the same again after the ACL and MCL tears on top of the bad back he was battling all year. He is a monster
RT and being that big doesn't help at all when coming back from these types of injuries. Sucks, I started really liking the guy in the 
Carolina game where the OL was starting to come together.

Jonah I also have doubts about, need to add a couple OT's honestly even with Carman playing decent late last season and in the Post.

Same with Volson, I love that the guy shown that the NFL isn't too big for him as a rookie which was impressive coming from such a 
small school but he isn't the most athletic LG. Have to keep our options open at all the spots except Center and RG and even then a 
versatile IOL should be an option for the future like Avila who can play Center and Guard.

(03-05-2023, 07:13 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Trust me I knew what you were saying.  If Jonah is healthy, the only one I am truly concerned about is LC.  I dont see him back in time, and even if he is, the back, the knee.....?  We also need Volsen to take the next step.

Agreed. I was disappointed the seemingly flat refusals on trying Jonah at RT. At least entertain it.

(03-05-2023, 08:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I thought it was sarcastic as hell. 


All true.


Would love Avila, I just think the coaches are happy with Volson there even if you aren't Bfine lol


Yeah, LC might never be the same again after the ACL and MCL tears on top of the bad back he was battling all year. He is a monster
RT and being that big doesn't help at all when coming back from these types of injuries. Sucks, I started really liking the guy in the 
Carolina game where the OL was starting to come together.

Jonah I also have doubts about, need to add a couple OT's honestly even with Carman playing decent late last season and in the Post.

Same with Volson, I love that the guy shown that the NFL isn't too big for him as a rookie which was impressive coming from such a 
small school but he isn't the most athletic LG. Have to keep our options open at all the spots except Center and RG and even then a 
versatile IOL should be an option for the future like Avila who can play Center and Guard.

Yeah, the biggest issue with LC is you're banking on him not only healing on time, but even then it's an uphill battle with conditioning let alone weight management.  

With Jonah, even if he plays decently well there may be a gap in long term negotiations.  They absolutely need to draft a tackle high. 

We can be "comfortable with all those guys" but still add. 

(03-05-2023, 07:42 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agree on Collins and even when he does make it back with all the back issues he already has and now along with the knee. How many games can he stay on the field. Moreover, his pass pro wasn't the greatest even when he was somewhat healthy last season. That knee isn't going to help against speed rushers I'm sure. I just have a hard time believing Collins is the answer at RT next season.

Williams I have doubts about as well. I'm not fully convinced he's a long term answer at LT. I'm hoping he comes back healthy and returns to what was it 2021 he played fairly well? 

Volson I'm on the fence about. He had stretches where he was decent. And a few games where he wasn't all that great. And I'm throwing out the first couple games. I'm hoping he steps it up this season. But I'm not opposed to an upgrade, at all.

I do not believe Jonah has done anything close to securing a spot as a long term solution.  He did have some very solid games this past season, so there were signs of being capable.  I am just hoping that between him and Carmen we get average play.  

Volson presents shaky hopefulness.  I believe he improved throughout the season, although his grades throughout the season did not reveal a large jump in improvement.  His age is a concern, I'm hoping he takes the next step.

(03-05-2023, 06:20 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Sooner:
I disagree that lots of of teams missed on Mahomes. he went #10.  Ahead of him was Miles Garrett, Christian McCaffrey, Mike Williams, Jamal Adams, Fournette.  The Bears did choose Tribisky.

Pacheco was a much more proven commodity than Evans.  I will never get that draft selection.

I would bet that no team has been as abysmal drafting oline in the last decade as us.



My Friend Isaac Curtis:

I appreciate your list and it is difficult to read when our kicker is tiers above all others.

KC in the last 3 drafts:

2022
4th Williams - played 17 games
7th Watson - played 16 games
7th Pacheco - played 17 games
7th Johnson - played 11 games

2021
6th OL Smith - starter for 2 seasons 72 PFF grade both seasons

2020
4the Snead - started 38 games in 3 years, very good player

Normally games played/started isnt the most impressive stat, but when the team is in the AFC title game every year and wins a SB...

We have had

Volson - 53 PFF score

MoneyMac - awesome

No other starters in the last 3 seasons.  2 out of 14 starters in last 3 years.


KC is miles ahead of us when it comes to drafting.

We are pretty solid on finding quality "2nd tier guys", our defensive coaching has become excellent, Burrow and Chase are likely more exceptional that we even think.

But my concern is moving forward with the new big contracts, we have to do better identifying talented players deeper in the draft.

We gotten starter production from 2 players out of 6 last draft.

We've gotten starter production from 2 players out 10 in 2 years from the draft before.  I will add Ossai and Sample are coming on...

We've gotten production from our top 3 picks in 2020, ADG has potential, Adeniji obviously has video on Mike Brown doing something...


We need to identify that Trey Smith in the 6th, Pacheco in the 7th, Snead in the 4th. 

Volson and Lawson are the only 2 starting 4th rounders we have had since Boling. 
 
4th rounders:
Shelvin
Smith
Billings
Finley
Wren
Jordan
Walton
Malone
Glasgow
Westerman
Bodine
Porter
Charles
Shaw
Hardison

Outside of Lawson & Cordell, ADG  is the superstar of the 4th round since 2011. We must do better.







 

Look, I apprciate the list, and I am not arguing that we do a better job than KC late. I was taking issue with the idea that we did a terrible job. And I also think that going back to before ZT was here is totally meaningless for this discussion. 

Also, I think games played can be a bit misleading.

In 2022, we traded up twice, so had less picks. 
4th: Volson: STARTED 17 games 
5th: Anderson: hurt/stashed all year (he'll play this year)
7th: Gunter: played in 10 games. 

2021: Games played: 21/22
4th: Sample: 14/16. 
4th: Shelvin: 2/3. Released. That is a whiff. 
4th: Smith: 2/1. A project that has not paid off as of yet. 
5th: McPherson. 16/16 
6th: T. Hill: 13/11. 
6th: Evans: 14/12. 
7th: Hubert: got hurt & retired.

We aren't getting starters late because the starters are stacked with guys drafted 1st-3rd. And because FA/trades helped the rebuild. Often with guys dtafted high. 

On O: Burrow, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, and Mixon are studs we drafted Rd2 or sooner. We brought in FAs to start in 2022 at TE, C, RG  & RT. It made zero sense to take another tackle with Jonah there. That's 10/11 spots. Volson was a 4th Rd pick. Hurst was a 1st (replacing CJ), Cappa a 3rd, Karras a 6th, Collins UFA. 

On D: Hubbard, Wilson, Pratt, Bates, and CTB are guys we drafted Rd2 or Rd 3. We brought in established studs in Reader (5th) & Hendrickson (3rd) plus solid vets like Hilton & Bell. That's 9 spots. Awuzie (2nd) and Apple (1st) were fantastic rehab jobs as FAs. And BJ Hill (3rd) via trade. 

The Chiefs are years ahead of us in their arc of contention. As Burrow & the others get raises, we'll have to rely more on draft picks & less on FAs to be starter level guys. We will not be able to afford them. But most of our FAs we got in rebuilding (Awuzie, Bell, Reader, Hendrickson, etc) are still getting paid, & those decisions will be upcoming. 

Again, I am mot comparing us vs the Chiefs. Just saying that under ZT, we have gotten about what I'd expect out of our 4th-7th guys on a team that starts a lot of FAs: mostly quality depth guys (C. Sample, ADG, Bailey, etc) and a couple starters (Volson, McPherson). And we've missed on a couple. And a couple got hurt. 

(03-02-2023, 05:39 PM)Housh Wrote: I’d put money Volson doesn’t get that much better. Volson’s improvements will likely be in the IQ dept. he’ll probably be a bench, fringe starter his whole career. Which honestly getting that in round 4 would be solid

He was an old rookie

you realize with the COVID year, there is alot of "older" rookies right?

I'm not very comfortable with Frank Pollack.

Here's what I'm expecting this year:
- Williams will be the starter at LT as long as he's healthy.
- Volson, Karras, and Cappa have IOL starter spots covered.
- Carman will be in the mix for RT starting duties while Collins is recovering.
- If another OT is added in the offseason, it will either be a draft pick who rides the bench for a year (or two) before taking over as a starter, or a cheaper vet who has swing tackle capability and can fill in at either spot if Williams or Carman/Collins isn't able to start.

(03-06-2023, 12:05 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Here's what I'm expecting this year:
- Williams will be the starter at LT as long as he's healthy.
- Volson, Karras, and Cappa have IOL starter spots covered.
- Carman will be in the mix for RT starting duties while Collins is recovering.
- If another OT is added in the offseason, it will either be a draft pick who rides the bench for a year (or two) before taking over as a starter, or a cheaper vet who has swing tackle capability and can fill in at either spot if Williams or Carman/Collins isn't able to start.

Solid

(03-04-2023, 09:02 PM)casear2727 Wrote: If Carmen can be a starting LT for the Bengals as a second rounder I think that is a pretty good draft pick for the Bengals.  
A 4th rounder who started in every game and got better as the season progressed is a steal.  The line played well with Volson in it during the 10 game winning streak, they allowed Burrow to do his thing, regardless of PFF scores.  I don't claim the Bengals are great at drafting linemen.  But this line the Bengals built last year with 4 new guys was a capable line, where it failed was the backup RT and RG. With a tougher schedule and every team gunning for the Bengals they won more games this year than last, the line was better.


How in the world can anyone think Carmen was a steal as a 2nd round pick chosen before future All Pros, while Carmen cannot beat out ANY player at any positon on the oline?

I like Volson, but not sure how he exceeded expectations?  Did everyone expect him to be rated below #66 among guards, and that 65 rating is far exceeding those expectations?  He did beat out that "pretty good steal" 2nd rounder, but his PFF scores are not good, not even average, and must improve this season. 

You sound like you may be the official Bengals Oline evaluator of the last decade.  Without checking, I would venture that we are the absolute worst in drafting olinemen in the last 10 years or so.

(03-04-2023, 06:13 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I was not happy with the signing so im not part of that group, Carmen has still underperformed for his 2nd round pick , yes  played well enough late in year but this season will tell if he is playing to the level of his draft pick.. agree Volson was a pleasant surprise his rookie year, it in the end  we have had a sub par overall performances with our line under Pollacks tenure. and we have  spent a good amount of capital in FA and draft over the past 3 years.. we have to good improvement this year  for me to feel he is the right Oline coach for us

Carmen disappointed for first two seasons, he had bust hanging from his neck.  This season I think he surprised all of us how well he protected Burrow's blind side at Buffalo and KC, how tough a test was that?  No tougher.  So drafting a 2ed rounder who can play at a high level at LT is a good pick, regardless of his unproductive first two years, imho.    Pollack built a Super Bowl contending line in 2022 by adding 4 new guys, very difficult! I'm sure we'd have been to the SB had it stayed in tact, where he's fallen short is depth.  Maybe Jonah's kneecap has been an issue for him these past two seasons and he's a better player now, maybe Carmen is the RT permanently and the draft is simply for depth.  That's the best case I guess.

(03-06-2023, 01:27 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Carmen disappointed for first two seasons, he had bust hanging from his neck.  This season I think he surprised all of us how well he protected Burrow's blind side at Buffalo and KC, how tough a test was that?  No tougher.  So drafting a 2ed rounder who can play at a high level at LT is a good pick, regardless of his unproductive first two years, imho.    Pollack built a Super Bowl contending line in 2022 by adding 4 new guys, very difficult! I'm sure we'd have been to the SB had it stayed in tact, where he's fallen short is depth.  Maybe Jonah's kneecap has been an issue for him these past two seasons and he's a better player now, maybe Carmen is the RT permanently and the draft is simply for depth.  That's the best case I guess.

Uhh...Carman's only been on the team two seasons.
So he disappointed the first season and a half, but he was a pleasant surprise in the playoffs this past January.
The way you worded your first two sentences makes it sound like you think he's been here for three years.
We haven't really seen him at RT yet, but it sounds like the coaches are going to try him there in the Summer to see how he does.
With the (high) possibility Williams leaves after this season and Collins potentially gone next offseason or the one after, the Bengals will need to start planning for at least one, if not two, more OL to join the fold.

(03-06-2023, 12:05 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Here's what I'm expecting this year:
- Williams will be the starter at LT as long as he's healthy.
- Volson, Karras, and Cappa have IOL starter spots covered.
- Carman will be in the mix for RT starting duties while Collins is recovering.
- If another OT is added in the offseason, it will either be a draft pick who rides the bench for a year (or two) before taking over as a starter, or a cheaper vet who has swing tackle capability and can fill in at either spot if Williams or Carman/Collins isn't able to start.

This aligns with Pollack's comments and it's worth noting the OL lost three starters going into the playoffs. I'm thinking Zac, Pollack, and the staff can't help but feel the KC game might have had a different outcome with the starting OL healthy.

(03-06-2023, 01:41 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: This aligns with Pollack's comments and it's worth noting the OL lost three starters going into the playoffs. I'm thinking Zac, Pollack, and the staff can't help but feel the KC game might have had a different outcome with the starting OL healthy.

I didn't mention anything about Scharping, but I do think they either re-sign him or they get another IOL for depth.
I don't see them adding any IOL who would push Volson out of a starting role this year.
With the news Vorhees tore his ACL at the Combine, I expect him to go later than originally expected.
If the Bengals like Vorhees' potential, they might view him as a BPA-once-healthy kinda selection in the middle rounds (assuming he falls that far) and shelf him for (most of) this year to see how Volson grows. At worst, Vorhees would be a high quality and versatile IOL backup, at best he supplants Volson at LG once he's back healthy and gets back in the groove.