(03-06-2023, 01:40 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Look, I apprciate the list, and I am not arguing that we do a better job than KC late. I was taking issue with the idea that we did a terrible job. And I also think that going back to before ZT was here is totally meaningless for this discussion. 

Also, I think games played can be a bit misleading.

In 2022, we traded up twice, so had less picks. 
4th: Volson: STARTED 17 games 
5th: Anderson: hurt/stashed all year (he'll play this year)
7th: Gunter: played in 10 games. 

2021: Games played: 21/22
4th: Sample: 14/16. 
4th: Shelvin: 2/3. Released. That is a whiff. 
4th: Smith: 2/1. A project that has not paid off as of yet. 
5th: McPherson. 16/16 
6th: T. Hill: 13/11. 
6th: Evans: 14/12. 
7th: Hubert: got hurt & retired.

We aren't getting starters late because the starters are stacked with guys drafted 1st-3rd. And because FA/trades helped the rebuild. Often with guys dtafted high. 

On O: Burrow, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, and Mixon are studs we drafted Rd2 or sooner. We brought in FAs to start in 2022 at TE, C, RG  & RT. It made zero sense to take another tackle with Jonah there. That's 10/11 spots. Volson was a 4th Rd pick. Hurst was a 1st (replacing CJ), Cappa a 3rd, Karras a 6th, Collins UFA. 

On D: Hubbard, Wilson, Pratt, Bates, and CTB are guys we drafted Rd2 or Rd 3. We brought in established studs in Reader (5th) & Hendrickson (3rd) plus solid vets like Hilton & Bell. That's 9 spots. Awuzie (2nd) and Apple (1st) were fantastic rehab jobs as FAs. And BJ Hill (3rd) via trade. 

The Chiefs are years ahead of us in their arc of contention. As Burrow & the others get raises, we'll have to rely more on draft picks & less on FAs to be starter level guys. We will not be able to afford them. But most of our FAs we got in rebuilding (Awuzie, Bell, Reader, Hendrickson, etc) are still getting paid, & those decisions will be upcoming. 

Again, I am mot comparing us vs the Chiefs. Just saying that under ZT, we have gotten about what I'd expect out of our 4th-7th guys on a team that starts a lot of FAs: mostly quality depth guys (C. Sample, ADG, Bailey, etc) and a couple starters (Volson, McPherson). And we've missed on a couple. And a couple got hurt. 

I get it.

But I dont see Gunter playing in 10 games with 1 tackle assist the entire season as being a contributor?

Anderson even if healthy, was most likely 99% ST only this past season.  

Sample is a rotation guy, but I could see a rookie pass rusher surpassing him immediately.

Shelvin, like you said, was a wiff.

Smith looked worse this preseason than he ever has, did they move Carmen from G to T because Smith regressed?

Hill has never looked good to me, hope he takes a step or Ben Brown could supplant him freeing up a spot as Brown can play C & G.

Evans was a terrible pick, should had been UDFA


These guys are not starting for any team, Dax didnt start due to Bates, these guys are not talented enough to have been starters and to be honest I dont want any of them to become starters.


And I repeat Rds 1-3 should produce quality players, especially as high as we had been picking prior to the last 2 years.

KC is much more than 1 year ahead of us as to drafting quality deeper in the draft. 

Look at your list, where is a Smith, Snead, Pacheco?

You can be satisfied with all the draftees, but I think I can make a case that says we are Charles Barkley TURRBLE drafting deep in the draft and we are embarrassingly horrendous at drafting oline the last 10 years.

My entire point is simply to suggest that we must improve on drafting deep and drafting oline with all the new big contracts we have coming up.

(03-06-2023, 09:47 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: Only way I am happy keeping Mixon on this team is if Perine is the number 1 back and Mixon is paid like 3 or 4 million. I would not be pissed about that but still think it is time to move on and get a more explosive 3 down back that does not need to come off the field.

If we go with Perine starting for us would rather see Our 3rd and 4th stringers get a shot at the speed back role to Perine's power role.

A draft pick with young legs could be a spark for this team to get them rolling in the run game.

Carman is a much better run blocker than Williams as well. I know nobody wants him starting but got a feeling he will be next year at some point during the year.

The only way we are getting teams out of cover two is if we can run the ball and get more production out of TE and the slot WR attacking intermediate depths of the field. They will give us underneath short routes and 3 yards a carry all year long. The slot was pretty solid last year with Boyd but TE routes all seemed too short.

Perine is not starting over Mixon, that is silly.  I would not mind letting Mixon go and pairing Perine with a speedster like Achane pr Spears...

We all know Williams is starting LT, if leading the league in sacks given up and playing with 2 dislocated knee caps doesn't get him benched nothing else will. 

"If Carmen can be a starting LT for the Bengals as a second rounder I think that is a pretty good draft pick for the Bengals.  

A 4th rounder who started in every game and got better as the season progressed is a steal.  The line played well with Volson in it during the 10 game winning streak, they allowed Burrow to do his thing, regardless of PFF scores.  I don't claim the Bengals are great at drafting linemen.  But this line the Bengals built last year with 4 new guys was a capable line, where it failed was the backup RT and RG. With a tougher schedule and every team gunning for the Bengals they won more games this year than last, the line was better."


When do you see Carmen starting at LT?  He isnt this season, maybe next year in 2024?  So a 2nd rounder only starting in his 4th season is a pretty good draft pick?  I stand corrected, you did say "for the Bengals", and we are awful at drafting linemen so, ok, starting in the final year only is good for us... sad. 

Carmen, beyond the eye test, with his minimal snaps actually graded out lower than Jonah and his over 1,100 snaps...

I'd like to think Volson progressed, but his grades did not reflect a hockey stick...

The Bengals line was built 60% with free agents, there is no correlation that we got better drafting oline. 

The Bengals line failed with a draft pick at LT, a draft pick providing depth at RT and a draft pick playing less than average at LG.  Draft picks are the problem.

The line was better this season, but not because of the draft... 

(03-06-2023, 10:35 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Perine is not starting over Mixon, that is silly.  I would not mind letting Mixon go and pairing Perine with a speedster like Achane pr Spears...

We all know Williams is starting LT, if leading the league in sacks given up and playing with 2 dislocated knee caps doesn't get him benched nothing else will. 

I did not say Mixon being second fiddle to Perine is likely. I said that is the only way I am not pissed off about Mixon being on the team this year. As well as a pay cut.

Williams most likely is the LT starter but he is also most likely to have another injury this year so Carman will be starting at some point. Your knees just don't magically get better the guy is going to have issues the rest of his career most likely. 

(03-06-2023, 10:47 PM)casear2727 Wrote: "If Carmen can be a starting LT for the Bengals as a second rounder I think that is a pretty good draft pick for the Bengals.  

A 4th rounder who started in every game and got better as the season progressed is a steal.  The line played well with Volson in it during the 10 game winning streak, they allowed Burrow to do his thing, regardless of PFF scores.  I don't claim the Bengals are great at drafting linemen.  But this line the Bengals built last year with 4 new guys was a capable line, where it failed was the backup RT and RG. With a tougher schedule and every team gunning for the Bengals they won more games this year than last, the line was better."


When do you see Carmen starting at LT?  He isnt this season, maybe next year in 2024?  So a 2nd rounder only starting in his 4th season is a pretty good draft pick?  I stand corrected, you did say "for the Bengals", and we are awful at drafting linemen so, ok, starting in the final year only is good for us... sad. 

Carmen, beyond the eye test, with his minimal snaps actually graded out lower than Jonah and his over 1,100 snaps...

I'd like to think Volson progressed, but his grades did not reflect a hockey stick...

The Bengals line was built 60% with free agents, there is no correlation that we got better drafting oline. 

The Bengals line failed with a draft pick at LT, a draft pick providing depth at RT and a draft pick playing less than average at LG.  Draft picks are the problem.

The line was better this season, but not because of the draft... 

Carman was experimented his first season as an OG, and it clearly didn't work.
Not saying it was a completely lost year, but it wasn't time spent at OT.
And he started this previous season at OG too.
So he's not really been groomed at OT except toward the 2nd half of this past season.

As for how he grades, Carman actually graded out at a 67.2 pass block rating this past season according to PFF. Only 1 sack allowed in 113 PB snaps.

If you look back at his 2021 grades, he did substantially better at LG/LT than he did at RG.
He had 62 pass block snaps at LG/LT, and he didn't allow a sack and only 2 total pressures.

He has a potential to start at RT this year, as Collins is on the mend.
If Carman is playing well until Collins is back, they might decide to keep rolling with Carman.


So I think it's definitely possible Carman could factor into their long-term plans and they only may be looking at needing one new starter after this season, or possibly no new starters if they do re-sign (or tag) Williams next year.

(03-07-2023, 02:54 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: I did not say Mixon being second fiddle to Perine is likely. I said that is the only way I am not pissed off about Mixon being on the team this year. As well as a pay cut.

Williams most likely is the LT starter but he is also most likely to have another injury this year so Carman will be starting at some point. Your knees just don't magically get better the guy is going to have issues the rest of his career most likely. 

The manufacturers of Gorilla Tape are going to fashion a pair of specially designed knee sleeves to keep his kneecaps from becoming dislocated in the future. 

(03-05-2023, 11:07 PM)phil413 Wrote: Yeah, the biggest issue with LC is you're banking on him not only healing on time, but even then it's an uphill battle with conditioning let alone weight management.  

With Jonah, even if he plays decently well there may be a gap in long term negotiations.  They absolutely need to draft a tackle high. 

We can be "comfortable with all those guys" but still add. 

For sure Phil, well said. Adding a RT like Donavan Smith, Eluemunor or George Fant would do what we need, free up the draft 
and gives us insurance in case Carman fails at RT like he did at RG. Then we can add a rookie OT with high upside for the future.

Then we would be real comfortable lol

(03-06-2023, 01:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Uhh...Carman's only been on the team two seasons.
So he disappointed the first season and a half, but he was a pleasant surprise in the playoffs this past January.
The way you worded your first two sentences makes it sound like you think he's been here for three years.
We haven't really seen him at RT yet, but it sounds like the coaches are going to try him there in the Summer to see how he does.
With the (high) possibility Williams leaves after this season and Collins potentially gone next offseason or the one after, the Bengals will need to start planning for at least one, if not two, more OL to join the fold.

Ok great I got Carmen’s tenure wrong. The larger point I still stands. He played his butt off against Buffalo and KC in their last two games at LT, he’s far from a bust or a disappointment and was an excellent draft pick for a coveted position.

(03-07-2023, 03:26 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Ok great I got Carmen’s tenure wrong. The larger point I still stands. He played his butt off against Buffalo and KC in their last two games at LT, he’s far from a bust or a disappointment and was an excellent draft pick for a coveted position.

Frank Booth disagrees I am sure ha ha

But Carman did show well against the best in the Playoffs. It just seems he is a LT from what we saw, not on board with moving
him to RT after this like Pollack is talkin'. To me this doesn't make sense.

(03-07-2023, 03:26 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Ok great I got Carmen’s tenure wrong. The larger point I still stands. He played his butt off against Buffalo and KC in their last two games at LT, he’s far from a bust or a disappointment and was an excellent draft pick for a coveted position.

I wouldn't go that far.
Carman still needs to earn a full-time starting role and play solid-or-better as a starter for me to consider it an "excellent" pick.
Right now, he's doing ok in certain positions but was terrible at RG.
We haven't seen him at RT yet, but we might see him there in TC.

(03-07-2023, 03:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I wouldn't go that far.
Carman still needs to earn a full-time starting role and play solid-or-better as a starter for me to consider it an "excellent" pick.
Right now, he's doing ok in certain positions but was terrible at RG.
We haven't seen him at RT yet, but we might see him there in TC.

Truth. If Carman DOES play decent at RT that sure would make us all feel more comfortable...

(03-07-2023, 03:26 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Ok great I got Carmen’s tenure wrong. The larger point I still stands. He played his butt off against Buffalo and KC in their last two games at LT, he’s far from a bust or a disappointment and was an excellent draft pick for a coveted position.

Most fans are upset because a guy that played LT in college did not make a good RG. This guy was in Pollacks doghouse from day one because Carman was piano man's pick not Pollacks. The coach just needs to work with what he has got and do the best he can. If Pollack gets a high pick as a RB this year and a decent RT {unlike the guy Pollack wanted last year Collins} and the run game don't produce this year, then he will most likely lose his job next year.

(03-07-2023, 03:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Frank Booth disagrees I am sure ha ha

But Carman did show well against the best in the Playoffs. It just seems he is a LT from what we saw, not on board with moving
him to RT after this like Pollack is talkin'. To me this doesn't make sense.

If you was Pollack and had to play Carmen at a spot and your choices was LG RG RT in his rookie year which spot would you pick him to play if you wanted the guy to succeed?

I would pick LG for him to succeed 2nd option would be RT my very last option and the position I would pick for him if I wanted him to have the hardest time to succeed is RG. Where Pollack chose for him to play his rookie season.

(03-07-2023, 03:26 PM)bengals1969 Wrote:
Ok great I got Carmen’s tenure wrong. The larger point I still stands. He played his butt off against Buffalo and KC in their last two games at LT, he’s far from a bust or a disappointment and was an excellent draft pick for a coveted position.

That's not all you got wrong. Learn to spell his 6 letter name correctly, then we can work on his tenure.....

(03-07-2023, 03:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I wouldn't go that far.
Carman still needs to earn a full-time starting role and play solid-or-better as a starter for me to consider it an "excellent" pick.
Right now, he's doing ok in certain positions but was terrible at RG.
We haven't seen him at RT yet, but we might see him there in TC.

Folks longed for a return of Whit after LC went down, but Whit along with it never happening he could not play of the Right Side, he said some can, but he wasn't one of them. Maybe JC can push JW over to the Right side or challenge CV for the LG gig. JC's been in the league 1 year longer than JC, but what some may not realize is CV is almost 2 years older. 

(03-07-2023, 03:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Carman was experimented his first season as an OG, and it clearly didn't work.
Not saying it was a completely lost year, but it wasn't time spent at OT.
And he started this previous season at OG too.
So he's not really been groomed at OT except toward the 2nd half of this past season.

As for how he grades, Carman actually graded out at a 67.2 pass block rating this past season according to PFF. Only 1 sack allowed in 113 PB snaps.

If you look back at his 2021 grades, he did substantially better at LG/LT than he did at RG.
He had 62 pass block snaps at LG/LT, and he didn't allow a sack and only 2 total pressures.

He has a potential to start at RT this year, as Collins is on the mend.
If Carman is playing well until Collins is back, they might decide to keep rolling with Carman.


So I think it's definitely possible Carman could factor into their long-term plans and they only may be looking at needing one new starter after this season, or possibly no new starters if they do re-sign (or tag) Williams next year.

I do not see Carmen ever having success playing on the right side of the center, be it guard or tackle.  Interesting watching Tayler Lewan today state that he would be a horrendous RT, this from a 3X pro bowl tackle, some guys just cant play both sides.

(03-07-2023, 06:14 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I do not see Carmen ever having success playing on the right side of the center, be it guard or tackle.  Interesting watching Tayler Lewan today state that he would be a horrendous RT, this from a 3X pro bowl tackle, some guys just cant play both sides.

I agree if we push Carman to RT this year, I think we just slow his development at LT to take over for Williams at some point.

Carman was drafted as a LT he should have been on the left side his whole career.

(03-07-2023, 06:14 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I do not see Carmen ever having success playing on the right side of the center, be it guard or tackle.  Interesting watching Tayler Lewan today state that he would be a horrendous RT, this from a 3X pro bowl tackle, some guys just cant play both sides.

(03-07-2023, 10:51 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: I agree if we push Carman to RT this year, I think we just slow his development at LT to take over for Williams at some point.

Carman was drafted as a LT he should have been on the left side his whole career.

This is my fear. It just doesn't seem like a smart idea to even be talking about moving Carman to RT honestly.

Now, Jonah has played RT in college and then they rule that out? I was like WTF?

(03-08-2023, 06:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This is my fear. It just doesn't seem like a smart idea to even be talking about moving Carman to RT honestly.

Now, Jonah has played RT in college and then they rule that out? I was like WTF?

I was disappointed in Callahan’s seemingly dismissal of giving Carman a try at left tackle and Jonah at right tackle.

(03-08-2023, 06:23 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I was disappointed in Callahan’s seemingly dismissal of giving Carman a try at left tackle and Jonah at right tackle.

Same here, maybe it is Brian Callahan and not Frank Pollack...

If so, not smart by Callahan unless Carman really plays well where he has never played.