Foster Moreau is my fave of the TE's left. Hope he signs here, more of a down field threat if we use him that way and a good blocker.

LSU alumn on top of it, just fits.

(03-17-2023, 07:59 PM)OSUfan Wrote: Oh please! Kelce is far more dynamic than Mayer is and is YAC guy.

I like Mayer, but closer to Gronk speed than Kelcie speed. He is a decent blocker, but does not block like Gronk.

Deep TE class so I am not sure I see the urgency to over pay for a FA TE.

Does anyone have PFF grade on Moreau? I see lots of hype, but no actual factual data to back it up.

(03-18-2023, 01:47 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Does anyone have PFF grade on Moreau? I see lots of hype, but no actual factual data to back it up.

I have watched him play and he always impressed me, but no, someone else needs to grab the pff...

The only issue I see with him is drops and catch %. I heard he catches with his body a lot and needs to catch with his hands more might help him with the catch % issue. Although we have had this problem in the past with WR so hope our coaches hammer it into his head some.

Another thing that needs cleaned up badly since it cost us two starters on the O-line last year. Was when our O-linemen have nobody to block they help out the guys next to them by pushing with both hands and knocking the defender into another lineman. Karras pushed a defender into Collins leg/knee area one week and Volson pushed a defender into Cappas leg/knee a week or two later. Both plays are carbon copies of each other, and need addressed before we hurt more of our O-linemen.

(03-18-2023, 11:24 AM)casear2727 Wrote: There is no way in hell i draft Musgrave in the 1st Round either. But he has shown he can WIN running routes.  Some people dont kknow what that means apparently....  There are a million running backs with much greater agility that CANNOT run routes.  

Washington is slipping off blocks to catch passes and running straight lines.  I remember when I used to get all worked up over players running around real fast and strong in shorts at the combine.. the guy just doesn't have the production... 40 catches in his college career?  And Im not saying I dont like him and wouldnt want him to be on the team, just that a 1st round pick is high with his lack of production. 

This is my favorite part of your strange comments:  "I really like the assumptions that can be made as fact. "  I stated a fact, he has never shown a route tree and YOU ARE THRE ONE ASSUMING HE WILL BE TONY GONZALES based on.... the combine?  His majority of catches that were late releases?

You are making all the assumptions.  And yes 2-3 receptions per game is about the average for our offense...  You know just enough to have a conversation about things but then you step out with something that is just totally wrong....

I would probably be willing to bet that no team takes him in the 1st Round.... you want to take a wager?

So do tell what routes is it that you want to see Washington run? Can you point to me mentioning Tony Gonzales? I will wait.

So would you draft Bowers out of Georgia?

(03-18-2023, 03:30 PM)OSUfan Wrote: So do tell what routes is it that you want to see Washington run? Can you point to me mentioning Tony Gonzales? I will wait.

So would you draft Bowers out of Georgia?

Next year, yeah, just doubt Brock makes it to 32 next year.

(03-18-2023, 03:30 PM)OSUfan Wrote: So do tell what routes is it that you want to see Washington run? Can you point to me mentioning Tony Gonzales? I will wait.

Even better Ill show you.

Here’s the TE route tree…

Pro I — Traditional Y (TE) alignment pic.twitter.com/GfNoMYkoSV

— Matt Bowen (@MattBowen41) June 1, 2022

Ok the top TE route tree is nearly identical to what Hayden Hurst ran for the Bengals last year. See how its all breaking route off the main clear route? This is not going to be Darnell Washington. Michael Mayer, Dalton Kincaid, and Luke Musgrave are more suited for this. These require alot more stop start and short area quickness.

Now the second one has Darnell Washington's game all over it. The these routes let him run and really eat field with his long legs. Alot of play action routes in there that is going to let him get down field and jump guys and catch and run in space. It also allows him to run out and find holes in the zones to sit into which you see on the diagram (transitioning from catch to run after sitting down in a zone won't be a strong suit though).

Mayer, Kincaid, and Musgrave can run both route trees. (Although Mayer won't be able to run the second one as well as the other 3 guys) and Washington will be more limited to the second diagram that doesn't matter because those are big play opportunities which he will excel. Add in the fact he is a unique weapon as a blocker and you have a special player.

Mayer is the most well rounded TE in the class he can do it all and will be an excellent move TE in the NFL. His game is eerily similar to Mark Andrews. Dalton Kincaid is the most natural receiving TE in this class but wow he is a horrendous blocker. He got better as the year went on but some of the most hillarious TE tape you will see is Utah vs Florida Kincaid spent so much time on his ***. Musgrave looks the part showed he has the explosion the size length tore up the Senior Bowl but he has one year playing and that was in a rotational backup role. He exploded the first to games last year and then got hurt so its a big ?. Darnell Washington is a unique player and I would love to bring his blocking and big play ability to the Bengals but we just didn't see the TE's run his type of routes there was very little play action, very little motions etc. Things that would take full advantage of what Washington does best... (Which is irritating because alot of the stuff Darnell Washington does well fits the Wide Zone Scheme so very well.)

(03-18-2023, 03:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Next year, yeah, just doubt Brock makes it to 32 next year.

I am just wondering if others in this thread would draft Bowers because as I am watching film of the Georgia offense he is running virtually the exact same route tree that Washington is running. Hmmm....could it be the Georgia offense?

So I am really curious where the major difference is that some are seeing. I watch these highlights of Musgrave and see a guy taking short dump offs, settling into openings in the zone, straight deep seem and edge routes, and 5 or 10 yard drag routes. Am I missing something?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Slzz3toUkc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKd-FCRfhA

(03-18-2023, 01:47 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Does anyone have PFF grade on Moreau? I see lots of hype, but no actual factual data to back it up.

I dont have PFF so I can only see the free stuff but here is what is shows:

Foster Moreau 61.1 overall grade   49 targets   33 receptions   420 yards   2 TDs  12.7 ypc

Hayden Hurst 65.0 overall grade    65 targets   52 receptions   414 yards   2 TDs   8 ypc

so Moreau had 16 less targets, 19 less receptions yet still finished with 6 more yards and the same number of TDs.  Just looking at the stats and not seeing Moreau play, I would guess Moreau was used more as a downfield threat than Hurst. Its either that or he had more yards after the catch than Hurst.

(03-18-2023, 03:52 PM)OSUfan Wrote: I am just wondering if others in this thread would draft Bowers because as I am watching film of the Georgia offense he is running virtually the exact same route tree that Washington is running. Hmmm....could it be the Georgia offense?

Yeah, Darnell just did his job on that Offense and what was asked of him. He was the blocking TE and great at it.

Bowers was just the primary Receiving TE for them.

(03-18-2023, 04:04 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I dont have PFF so I can only see the free stuff but here is what is shows:

Foster Moreau 61.1 overall grade   49 targets   33 receptions   420 yards   2 TDs  12.7 ypc

Hayden Hurst 65.0 overall grade    65 targets   52 receptions   414 yards   2 TDs   8 ypc

so Moreau had 16 less targets, 19 less receptions yet still finished with 6 more yards and the same number of TDs.  Just looking at the stats and not seeing Moreau play, I would guess Moreau was used more as a downfield threat than Hurst

He was used as more of a downfield threat with the Raiders. We used Hurst as more of the dump down, last option.

Loved how he fought though, will miss that from Hayden.

(03-18-2023, 03:50 PM)Synric Wrote: Even better Ill show you.

Here’s the TE route tree…

Pro I — Traditional Y (TE) alignment pic.twitter.com/GfNoMYkoSV

— Matt Bowen (@MattBowen41) June 1, 2022

Ok the top TE route tree is nearly identical to what Hayden Hurst ran for the Bengals last year. See how its all breaking route off the main clear route? This is not going to be Darnell Washington. Michael Mayer, Dalton Kincaid, and Luke Musgrave are more suited for this. These require alot more stop start and short area quickness.

Now the second one has Darnell Washington's game all over it. The these routes let him run and really eat field with his long legs. Alot of play action routes in there that is going to let him get down field and jump guys and catch and run in space. It also allows him to run out and find holes in the zones to sit into which you see on the diagram (transitioning from catch to run after sitting down in a zone won't be a strong suit though).

Mayer, Kincaid, and Musgrave can run both route trees. (Although Mayer won't be able to run the second one as well as the other 3 guys) and Washington will be more limited to the second diagram that doesn't matter because those are big play opportunities which he will excel. Add in the fact he is a unique weapon as a blocker and you have a special player.

Mayer is the most well rounded TE in the class he can do it all and will be an excellent move TE in the NFL. His game is eerily similar to Mark Andrews. Dalton Kincaid is the most natural receiving TE in this class but wow he is a horrendous blocker. He got better as the year went on but some of the most hillarious TE tape you will see is Utah vs Florida Kincaid spent so much time on his ***. Musgrave looks the part showed he has the explosion the size length tore up the Senior Bowl but he has one year playing and that was in a rotational backup role. He exploded the first to games last year and then got hurt so its a big ?. Darnell Washington is a unique player and I would love to bring his blocking and big play ability to the Bengals but we just didn't see the TE's run his type of routes there was very little play action, very little motions etc. Things that would take full advantage of what Washington does best... (Which is irritating because alot of the stuff Darnell Washington does well fits the Wide Zone Scheme so very well.)

Nice post Synric, if we could use Darnell Washington right he could be a great pick. I just don't know if we could. He seems to fit a
run first Offense and than go Play Action way of doing things. Mayer actually seems to fit us better the more I think about it leading 
up to the Draft. Would rather take OL like Darnell Wright early but wouldn't be against Mayer, especially if we traded back and got him.

Kincaid is a terrible blocker, hence why I never mention him. I like LaPorta, Whyle, Kraft, Durham, Strange, Schoonmaker and even a 
couple more over Kincaid. You have to be able to block a little bit.

(03-18-2023, 04:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nice post Rfaulk, if we could use Darnell Washington right he could be a great pick. I just don't know if we could. He seems to fit a
run first Offense and than go Play Action way of doing things. Mayer actually seems to fit us better the more I think about it leading 
up to the Draft. Would rather take OL like Darnell Wright early but wouldn't be against Mayer, especially if we traded back and got him.

Kincaid is a terrible blocker, hence why I never mention him. I like LaPorta, Whyle, Kraft, Durham, Strange, Schoonmaker and even a 
couple more over Kincaid. You have to be able to block a little bit.

I will agree to disagree. 

(03-18-2023, 04:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, Darnell just did his job on that Offense and what was asked of him. He was the blocking TE and great at it.

Bowers was just the primary Receiving TE for them.

The point was that Bowers is running the same route tree that Washington is running because that is the Georgia offense.

(03-18-2023, 04:24 PM)OSUfan Wrote: The point was that Bowers is running the same route tree that Washington is running because that is the Georgia offense.

Brock Bowers plays multiple positions he is an offensive weapon. He lines up at Y and Z receiver to go along with TE-F and H-back. What they did at Georgia is not even close to similar. 

(03-18-2023, 01:37 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Foster Moreau is my fave of the TE's left. Hope he signs here, more of a down field threat if we use him that way and a good blocker.

LSU alumn on top of it, just fits.

...and think of the material for Chris Berman: “Burrow scores on a pass to the Island of Foster Moreau!”

(03-18-2023, 04:30 PM)Synric Wrote: Brock Bowers plays multiple positions he is an offensive weapon. He lines up at Y and Z receiver to go along with TE-F and H-back. What they did at Georgia is not even close to similar. 

I am done going back and forth about it. I have watched the film and saw the route trees that they were running. 

(03-18-2023, 04:04 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I dont have PFF so I can only see the free stuff but here is what is shows:

Foster Moreau 61.1 overall grade   49 targets   33 receptions   420 yards   2 TDs  12.7 ypc

Hayden Hurst 65.0 overall grade    65 targets   52 receptions   414 yards   2 TDs   8 ypc

so Moreau had 16 less targets, 19 less receptions yet still finished with 6 more yards and the same number of TDs.  Just looking at the stats and not seeing Moreau play, I would guess Moreau was used more as a downfield threat than Hurst.  Its either that or he had more yards after the catch than Hurst.

For more info:
Receiving grade: FM = 69.7, HH = 64.5
Pass Block grade: FM = 72.0, HH = 41.0
Run Block grade: FM = 40.8, HH = 58.7

For trends 2019-2021:
Moreau was in the 50's in run block
Moreau's pass blocking was up and down - as low as 46.6 and as high as 75.3
Moreau's receiving was mostly around what he was in 2022

His RAS indicated he could be a better receiver if he was used more in college and in the NFL:
4.66 40 (very good)
1.63 10 yd split (very good)
4.11 shuttle (great)
7.16 3-cone (solid)
36.5" vert (great)
10'1" broad (very good)

It's possible Moreau can be just as good as, if not somewhat better than, Hurst as a receiver.
My only reasoning for not thinking he should get $7+ mill APY is because the best season he's ever had was 420 yards.
I'd be willing to give more if he had more proven productionm 
But I do think he'd be a solid addition to the team, and I think he could put up 500+ yards with the Bengals.
I'd look to give him ~$4-5 mill APY. Maybe a 2-year, $10 mill deal where this year is $4 mill and next year is $6 mill.
I could also see him wanting just a 1-year prove-it deal like Hurst did so he can cash in more after this season to prove 2022 wasn't an outlier but more the norm if he gets more opportunity.