(03-25-2023, 11:23 AM)OSUfan Wrote: The performance Brown put on in the down the stretch and in the playoffs could be considered elite. Dominant players play their best when it matters the most and that is exactly what this young man did. You must also consider blocking for Mahommes. His drops are some of the deepest you are going to see in the NFL and he has really happy feet. Rather than moving up in the pocket Mahommes dances a bit and he is absolutely known for holding the ball for a very long time. These are all aspects that make it far harder on the offensive line to protect him and a very good reason you see his blockers being credited with many pressures.

So you avoided the question I posed. Were you complaining about the performance that Carman put up in the playoffs? It could be argued that his performance put the Bengals in position for another Super Bowl.

It is not a love I have for Carman rather an ability to look at a situation with perspective rather than just negativity.

Brown isnt dominant, and Carman is a back up. Carman played OK in the playoffs. You love Carman too much. Once again, he's going into his 3rd season as a back up. He's a 2nd round pick.

Carman might have been a little immature coming in to the NFL but part of his problem is Frank Pollack and the rest of the coaching staff not knowing how to use him. You draft the LT from those great Clemson teams and you decide you are going to experiment at changing him to a RG then LG, then back to his natural position at LT. Now Pollack is talking about moving Carman to RT. I dont see how the coaching staff can keep moving him around and then be surprised he has some struggles. Its not all on Carman..

(03-25-2023, 11:38 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Brown isnt dominant, and Carman is a back up. Carman played OK in the playoffs...

Which is much better than what Adeniji or Scharping did.  At the very least Carman showed he is a capable backup and adds value to this team.  You couldnt say that about some of the other guys on the roster.

(03-25-2023, 11:52 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Which is much better than what Adeniji or Scharping did.  At the very least Carman showed he is a capable backup and adds value to this team.  You couldnt say that about some of the other guys on the roster.

so when you draft an o-lineman in the 2nd round, you're hoping for a good back up by year 3? Dont think so.

(03-25-2023, 12:09 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: so when you draft an o-lineman in the 2nd round, you're hoping for a good back up by year 3? Dont think so.

It is not the worst outcome. I'd say a quality backup with the potential to be a starter is a good outcome for a 2nd rounder. Obviously, you want some guys to develop into quality starters (Higgins, Bates, Mixon). But guys picked in the 30s vs 40s-60s is a significant difference. Carman hasn't even had a full year at tackle yet. Closing the book on him right now is ridiculous.

Carnan has shown he can play at a quality starter level in a huge road game(s) in the POs. By year 2. There were some maturity issues early on. But he is not a fully developed player yet. He could get significantly better. 

Scharping & Ford were 2nd rounders. Carman is already better. 

(03-25-2023, 12:09 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: so when you draft an o-lineman in the 2nd round, you're hoping for a good back up by year 3? Dont think so.

No, but like I mentioned in my other post, I think some of the blame falls on the coaching staff for drafting a left tackle then trying to move him to guard and being surprised he doesnt play there as well as his original position.  Last year was only Carman's second year in the NFL.  He looked pretty good in the limited amount of time he played at his natural LT position. 

(03-25-2023, 12:33 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: It is not the worst outcome. I'd say a quality backup with the potential to be a starter is a good outcome for a 2nd rounder. Obviously, you want some guys to develop into quality starters (Higgins, Bates, Mixon). But guys picked in the 30s vs 40s-60s is a significant difference. Carman hasn't even had a full year at tackle yet. Closing the book on him right now is ridiculous.

Carnan has shown he can play at a quality starter level in a huge road game(s) in the POs. By year 2. There were some maturity issues early on. But he is not a fully developed player yet. He could get significantly better. 

Scharping & Ford were 2nd rounders. Carman is already better. 

Im not closing the book on him but you're coping by saying Carman is good enough because he played well in 2.5 games as a back up

he's a 5 star recruit 2nd round pick that is still a back up. He couldnt beat out a 6th round tackle for the RG spot in 2021. He's still currently a bench player

It's not good at all. If you're gonna draft a player who is going to be a back up for his first 3 years, you would like to do that in round 4 onward. Not round 2

(03-25-2023, 12:42 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: No, but like I mentioned in my other post, I think some of the blame falls on the coaching staff for drafting a left tackle then trying to move him to guard and being surprised he doesnt play there as well as his original position.  Last year was only Carman's second year in the NFL.  He looked pretty good in the limited amount of time he played at his natural LT position. 

too limited of a sample size. I thought Adeniji looked alright in his first 2 games replacing LC (Im including the Bills monday night game)

and JC couldnt even beat out Adeniji for the RT spot. You'd think the 2nd round tackle would be the guy first guy to back up an injured tackle. Just a total disappointment. I dont know how this guy has so many defenders

(03-25-2023, 12:47 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: too limited of a sample size. I thought Adeniji looked alright in his first 2 games replacing LC (Im including the Bills monday night game)

and JC couldnt even beat out Adeniji for the RT spot. You'd think the 2nd round tackle would be the guy first guy to back up an injured tackle. Just a total disappointment. I dont know how this guy has so many defenders

I agree it's too limited of a sample size to make a judgement.  We dont know and because we dont know I dont think anyone can say for sure if Carman is living up to his draft position or not.  He hasnt been given the opportunities other than when Pollack had him playing out of position and even then, Carman did not do bad at LG. 

I also find it plausible Carman isnt as good on the right side of the line as he is on the left and maybe isnt as good as Adeniji at RT.  That wouldnt mean Carman isnt good, he just may be much better on the left side.  Lots of linemen are like this. 

(03-25-2023, 01:02 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I agree it's too limited of a sample size to make a judgement.  We dont know and because we dont know I dont think anyone can say for sure if Carman is living up to his draft position or not.  He hasnt been given the opportunities other than when Pollack had him playing out of position and even then, Carman did not do bad at LG. 

I also find it plausible Carman isnt as good on the right side of the line as he is on the left and maybe isnt as good as Adeniji at RT.  That wouldnt mean Carman isnt good, he just may be much better on the left side.  Lots of linemen are like this. 

"He hasnt been given the opportunities"

"Carman did not do bad at LG."

why do you say these blatantly false statements? Who are you trying to fool...

"he just may be much better on the left side"

he's not playing LT anymore so he better figure out how to play left guard. If he cant figure out how to play on the right side, he is only useful as a back up LT. You dont draft back up LT's in the 2nd round

He's flat out bad for a 2nd round pick

(03-25-2023, 01:25 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: "He hasnt been given the opportunities"

"Carman did not do bad at LG."

why do you say these blatantly false statements? Who are you trying to fool...

"he just may be much better on the left side"

he's not playing LT anymore so he better figure out how to play left guard. If he cant figure out how to play on the right side, he is only useful as a back up LT. You dont draft back up LT's in the 2nd round

He's flat out bad for a 2nd round pick

Carman as a rookie outplayed Volson as a rookie.  Carman posted a 56.3 PFF with zero sacks.  Volson posted a 51.6 PFF with 5 sacks.
In his 2 years with the Bengals, Carman has played 673 regular season and post season snaps.  He has give up just one sack.  He has not played bad.

If the coaching staff moves Carman to an Oline position he struggles at when he is better at a different position, that is on the coaching staff not Carman.  Not all positions on the O-line are the same so you cant expect your linemen to play all the various spots.  As a comparison not all spots in the defensive secondary are the same.   Jesse Bates is regarded as one of the better safties in the NFL.  If a coaching staff moved him to cornerback and he struggled would you say Bates is horrible because he cant play that spot very well?  No because he is out of position in the secondary.  Now you do have some guys that can play multiple positions in the secondary pretty well like Cam Taylor-Britt but it doesnt mean everyone can do it. Same is true with the O-line. You cant expect linemen to play every spot and do a good job.

(03-25-2023, 01:56 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Carman as a rookie outplayed Volson as a rookie.  Carman posted a 56.3 PFF with zero sacks.  Volson posted a 51.6 PFF with 5 sacks.
In his 2 years with the Bengals, Carman has played 673 regular season and post season snaps.  He has give up just one sack.  He has not played bad.

If the coaching staff moves Carman to an Oline position he struggles at when he is better at a different position, that is on the coaching staff not Carman.  Not all positions on the O-line are the same so you cant expect your linemen to play all the various spots.  As a comparison not all spots in the defensive secondary are the same.   Jesse Bates is regarded as one of the better safties in the NFL.  If a coaching staff moved him to cornerback and he struggled would you say Bates is horrible because he cant play that spot very well?  No because he is out of position in the secondary.  Now you do have some guys that can play multiple positions in the secondary pretty well like Cam Taylor-Britt but it doesnt mean everyone can do it.  Same is true with the O-line.  You cant expect linemen to play every spot and do a good job.

aint nobody buying that pff crap. People always pick and choose and are biased with the pff grades. I love pointing it out. 

For example, Carman's 56.3 is good, and Jonah's 77.1 in 2021 was bad. Enough with the bias

There's a reason Volson beat Carman for the LG job in 2022. For how bad a pass blocker Volson is at LG, Carman at that position is worse. 

It's time to stop defending Jackson Carman

and at the end of the day, it's up to the player to learn whatever position the coaches want them to play

Jackson Carman's draft profile on NFL.com gives him a 3rd rd grade. Depending on where you look, you can find 2nd or 3rd. You can certainly fault the Bengals for drafting him or Sample too early but you can't really fault Carman for his abilities. The Bengals drafted him where they did because that's where they wanted him. There's no guarantee that a 1st or 2nd rounder lives up to where he was drafted. He was given a Prospect Grade of 6.22 which comes out to "Will eventually be an average starter". That's pretty accurate for what we've seen. 

He's 23 right now with 2 full years of NFL experience. If it takes him 2 more years to become an average or better starter, you have a 25 year old guy in a spot you don't need to worry about for a while. 

Jawaan Taylor was given a "Year 1 starter" Prospect Grade but he didn't play well enough to earn a 15M+ contract until his 4th year (25 years old) and he's still not a very good run blocker which is what you usually look for in a RT. 

With all that said, you can't really deny that he's been "disappointing" up to this point (last years playoff performance notwithstanding). Not just to fans but to the FO and coaching staff as well. There are too many receipts out there to deny that. 

(03-25-2023, 02:03 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Jackson Carman's draft profile on NFL.com gives him a 3rd rd grade. Depending on where you look, you can find 2nd or 3rd. You can certainly fault the Bengals for drafting him or Sample too early but you can't really fault Carman for his abilities. The Bengals drafted him where they did because that's where they wanted him. There's no guarantee that a 1st or 2nd rounder lives up to where he was drafted. He was given a Prospect Grade of 6.22 which comes out to "Will eventually be an average starter". That's pretty accurate for what we've seen. 


He's 23 right now with 2 full years of NFL experience. If it takes him 2 more years to become an average or better starter, you have a 25 year old guy in a spot you don't need to worry about for a while. 

Jawaan Taylor was given a "Year 1 starter" Prospect Grade but he didn't play well enough to earn a 15M contract until his 4th year (25 years old) and he's still not a very good run blocker which is what you usually look for in a RT. 

With all that said, you can't really deny that he's been "disappointing" up to this point (last years playoff performance notwithstanding). Not just to fans but to the FO and coaching staff as well. There are too many receipts out there to deny that. 

Being a good pass blocker in today's league is far more important than being a good run blocker. You'd take the better pass blocker every time over the guy who can run block but cant pass protect. 

you'd absolutely take Taylor over LC last year at RT. Pass protection is far more important. LC was a good run blocker but bad pass blocker

and Taylor is KC's new LT btw

(03-25-2023, 02:06 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Being a good pass blocker in today's league is far more important than being a good run blocker. You'd take the better pass blocker every time over the guy who can run block but cant pass protect. 

you'd absolutely take Taylor over LC last year at RT. Pass protection is far more important. LC was a good run blocker but bad pass blocker

and Taylor is KC's new LT btw

In today's league the DL is so mismatched against OL that everyone schemes pass protection. That's why the number of "True Pass Protection" snaps are about 1/3rd of the passing attempts.

(03-25-2023, 02:02 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: aint nobody buying that pff crap. People always pick and choose and are biased with the pff grades. I love pointing it out. 

For example, Carman's 56.3 is good, and Jonah's 77.1 in 2021 was bad. Enough with the bias...

Jonah's 77.1 PFF wasnt bad in 2021 but the 8 sacks he allowed certainly was.  As you just mentioned in your other post, pass blocking is the #1 priority with the O-line.  Jonah allowing Burrow to get beat up isnt good.  He needs to do better than 8 sacks allowed and he most certainly needs to do better than 12.  Thats not good any way you try to look at it.

(03-25-2023, 02:02 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: aint nobody buying that pff crap. People always pick and choose and are biased with the pff grades. I love pointing it out. 

For example, Carman's 56.3 is good, and Jonah's 77.1 in 2021 was bad. Enough with the bias

There's a reason Volson beat Carman for the LG job in 2022. For how bad a pass blocker Volson is at LG, Carman at that position is worse. 

It's time to stop defending Jackson Carman

and at the end of the day, it's up to the player to learn whatever position the coaches want them to play

That's not really true. Most of Carman's issues came at RG. Two different games at that position where he gave up 6 pressures in '21. If you take all of Carman's snaps in '21 at 3 positions and all of Volson's snaps at LG last year, there's only a difference of 4 snaps per pressure between them (Volson better). In his last 2 starts at LG in '21, Carman only gave up 2 pressures on 95 snaps. That comes out to 47.5 SPP. He only took 12 more snaps at LG in an earlier game and didn't give up any pressures. He was brutally bad in the AFCCG in '21 against KC, at RG and it's not out of the ordinary for one or two bad games or plays to affect a person's opinion of a player.

A lot of Carman's issues are off-field, with his attitude and habits. On an even playing field, i'd take Carman over Volson at LG. 

(03-25-2023, 02:06 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Being a good pass blocker in today's league is far more important than being a good run blocker. You'd take the better pass blocker every time over the guy who can run block but cant pass protect. 

you'd absolutely take Taylor over LC last year at RT. Pass protection is far more important. LC was a good run blocker but bad pass blocker

and Taylor is KC's new LT btw

All true. But even in passpro, Taylor was below average until last year. 2 years ago he showed improvement and then last year took a big jump. It wasn't until his 4th year that he earned that type of contract. 

As far as playing LT at that level. We shall all see soon enough.

EDIT: LC wasn't a bad pass blocker last year. LCs numbers match Taylors in his 3rd year. They were both just below average.

(03-25-2023, 02:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That's not really true. Most of Carman's issues came at RG. Two different games at that position where he gave up 6 pressures in '21. If you take all of Carman's snaps in '21 at 3 positions and all of Volson's snaps at LG last year, there's only a difference of 4 snaps per pressure between them (Volson better). In his last 2 starts at LG in '21, Carman only gave up 2 pressures on 95 snaps. That comes out to 47.5 SPP. He only took 12 more snaps at LG in an earlier game and didn't give up any pressures. He was brutally bad in the AFCCG in '21 against KC, at RG and it's not out of the ordinary for one or two bad games or plays to affect a person's opinion of a player.

A lot of Carman's issues are off-field, with his attitude and habits. On an even playing field, i'd take Carman over Volson at LG. 

I meant RG when referencing Carman and his 2021 play. The pff grade on him doesn’t tell the whole story. He was atrocious at pass protection

(03-25-2023, 02:30 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: EDIT: LC wasn't a bad pass blocker last year. LCs numbers match Taylors in his 3rd year. They were both just below average.

LC was bad pass protector last year, quit lying. Good run blocker, bad pass blocker. Guy has no more side to side agility left in the tank after all the injuries. He’s more fit to play guard at this point