(04-10-2023, 11:13 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: LC is a beaten up T that can’t pass protect, but Jonah Williams… who has given up over 20 sacks the last two seasons is?  Give me a break.  

Hopefully between ford, collins, Carmen, Williams and maybe a Draft pick can step up.  

I wouldn’t give anyone a leg up in that camp battle, but I am hopeful they get adequate plate from one of them.

on a snap by snap basis, jonah is a better pass protector than LC. Yes. Does Jonah get beat badly? Hell yes. But he doesnt get beat as often as LC

if you dont believe me, I would like for you to say that pff is a bunch of crock. Go ahead, say it. Once you do, I want to see you bash pff and their grading system from now until the end of eternity. I like a poster who is consistent.

for how poor jonah was last year in pass pro, LC was worse. A turnstile.

It's just that teams can get away with and overcome having a RT that cant pass protect. LT is a different beast. We're talking about the blindside

now go ahead and bring up sacks. You know you want to

(04-10-2023, 11:20 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: on a snap by snap basis, jonah is a better pass protector than LC. Yes. Does Jonah get beat badly? Hell yes. But he doesnt get beat as often as LC

if you dont believe me, I would like for you to say that pff is a bunch of crock. Go ahead, say it. Once you do, I want to see you bash pff and their grading system from now until the end of eternity. I like a poster who is consistent.

for how poor jonah was last year in pass pro, LC was worse. A turnstile.

It's just that teams can get away with and overcome having a RT that cant pass protect. LT is a different beast. We're talking about the blindside

now go ahead and bring up sacks. You know you want to

Not getting into a debate with you over whatever you decide is good for today. If Jonah was (as you claim) average to above average… wouldn’t some team… any team… at least be interested in his services?

No one is beating down the door for his services. The fact is Jonah has been dreadful the last two seasons, regardless of your opinion of LC.

As far as who is better, I don’t really care. Whoever is on the team and the best RT is the player I want suiting up. I don’t see a lot of separation between jonah, carman, collins and potentially a rookie.

Maybe Jonah can turn it around… maybe we get offered a conditional
Day 3 pick… idk. But the fact is there hasn’t been a more turnstile tackle in the NFL over the last two years. 20 sacks in 2 seasons is an accomplishment.

(04-11-2023, 12:17 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Not getting into a debate with you over whatever you decide is good for today. If Jonah was (as you claim) average to above average… wouldn’t some team… any team… at least be interested in his services?

No one is beating down the door for his services. The fact is Jonah has been dreadful the last two seasons, regardless of your opinion of LC.

As far as who is better, I don’t really care. Whoever is on the team and the best RT is the player I want suiting up. I don’t see a lot of separation between jonah, carman, collins and potentially a rookie.

Maybe Jonah can turn it around… maybe we get offered a conditional
Day 3 pick… idk. But the fact is there hasn’t been a more turnstile tackle in the NFL over the last two years. 20 sacks in 2 seasons is an accomplishment.

Jonah is injury prone. Simple. If he stayed healthy and played like he did in 2021(which you claim was dreadful despite having a higher grade than any Orlando Brown jr year), then cincy wouldn’t have even signed Brown

We still don’t know what teams have offered cincy. Maybe they’ve been offered a 3rd, but would like to hold out for something better. Maybe they want Jonah at RT for the foreseeable future. We don’t know

Your arguments are weak. Come back with something better

(04-11-2023, 12:17 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Not getting into a debate with you over whatever you decide is good for today. If Jonah was (as you claim) average to above average… wouldn’t some team… any team… at least be interested in his services?

No one is beating down the door for his services. The fact is Jonah has been dreadful the last two seasons, regardless of your opinion of LC.

As far as who is better, I don’t really care. Whoever is on the team and the best RT is the player I want suiting up. I don’t see a lot of separation between jonah, carman, collins and potentially a rookie.

Maybe Jonah can turn it around… maybe we get offered a conditional
Day 3 pick… idk. But the fact is there hasn’t been a more turnstile tackle in the NFL over the last two years. 20 sacks in 2 seasons is an accomplishment.

Btw great job ignoring all the points and going straight back to your typical garbage of “so many sacks in 2022” argument

Im tempted to bring up some other facts and stuff but you’ll just dodge that too

We all should chip in and get Frank laid.

(04-11-2023, 12:43 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Btw great job ignoring all the points and going straight back to your typical garbage of “so many sacks in 2022” argument

Im tempted to bring up some other facts and stuff but you’ll just dodge that too

I’m not going into, or interested, in comparing these players. It would be like debating who will win more games this year, panthers, Texans or falcons. Someone will win more, it’s just hard to say. They are all below average at this point. Maybe one will step up and surprise, but I’m not in a position to project it, or even want to debate it.

Jonah has been dreadful recently. Injuries may be a part of it… sure. But that’s the reality of the NFL. The bengals wouldn’t have signed OBJ if it was just one year, due to injuries. That’s not their MO.

(04-11-2023, 12:22 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Jonah is injury prone. Simple. If he stayed healthy and played like he did in 2021(which you claim was dreadful despite having a higher grade than any Orlando Brown jr year), then cincy wouldn’t have even signed Brown

We still don’t know what teams have offered cincy. Maybe they’ve been offered a 3rd, but would like to hold out for something better. Maybe they want Jonah at RT for the foreseeable future. We don’t know

Your arguments are weak. Come back with something better

Brandin cooks has 100 more catches, and 1000 more yards than OBJ. Crazy to think that Cooks will almost assuredly finish with a better career.

(04-11-2023, 04:13 AM)wanga Wrote: We all should chip in and get Frank laid.

Or hit the ignore button. Much cheaper


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(04-11-2023, 12:17 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Not getting into a debate with you over whatever you decide is good for today. If Jonah was (as you claim) average to above average… wouldn’t some team… any team… at least be interested in his services?

No one is beating down the door for his services. The fact is Jonah has been dreadful the last two seasons, regardless of your opinion of LC.

As far as who is better, I don’t really care. Whoever is on the team and the best RT is the player I want suiting up. I don’t see a lot of separation between jonah, carman, collins and potentially a rookie.

Maybe Jonah can turn it around… maybe we get offered a conditional
Day 3 pick… idk. But the fact is there hasn’t been a more turnstile tackle in the NFL over the last two years. 20 sacks in 2 seasons is an accomplishment.

He was far from dreadful in '21 and that's a fact.

(04-11-2023, 09:35 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: He was far from dreadful in '21 and that's a fact.

He was also far from Elite. 

(04-11-2023, 10:04 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: He was also far from Elite. 

Great, nobody said he was elite.

(04-11-2023, 10:04 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: He was also far from Elite. 

Thus, the signing of Orlando Brown Jr.

(04-11-2023, 10:08 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Thus, the signing of Orlando Brown Jr.

Who is also not elite

(04-11-2023, 12:43 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Btw great job ignoring all the points and going straight back to your typical garbage of “so many sacks in 2022” argument

Im tempted to bring up some other facts and stuff but you’ll just dodge that too

I'm in agreement with Frank.
Jonah Williams has some bad reps, which gets reflected as poor "stats" against him but he has a lot of very good reps between those gaffes.
How's the saying go for OL? I think it's, "You don't get noticed unless you're doing something bad," or something like that.

So Jonah's good reps go largely unnoticed, but he gets scrutinized heavily because his select few bad reps are much more noticeable.
There are (plenty of) other guys that while they may not have as many sacks tagged to them, they don't have nearly as strong of good reps that Jonah does.

Personally, I am ok if Jonah stays and tries to lock down the RT position.
If he plays well, there might be a sliver of hope you could re-sign him as the long-term RT. Not likely since he probably wants to be LT somewhere, but who knows.
Honestly, I'd expect Jonah to do better given he'd have Cappa blocking next to him, not rookie Cordell Volson.

Perhaps the plan could be to hold onto Jonah through Day 1, maybe even through Round 2 of the draft and see who they might be able to draft.
If they can nab a RT they really like in that time, they could try to turn around and trade Jonah for a pick. But if not, they have a potentially decent starter who could possibly net them up to a 3rd round comp pick for 2025.

(04-11-2023, 10:10 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Who is also not elite

Maybe not, but the team certainly felt like he will be capable of getting the job done, moreso than the guy that they spent a 1st round pick on that can't stay healthy.

The word "elite" is being cheapened in this day and age, as it is thrown around way too loosely.  By definition, elite means the best of the best.  In football terms that would imply a player of such superior quality that you might not see another equal to him but once every 10 years or so.  A true generational talent, if you will.

(04-11-2023, 10:10 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Who is also not elite

No, but closer than Jonah, and I think Brown will do much better here with a QB that stays in the Pocket. 
Jonah's problems have been mainly his injuries, no idea if that's due to conditioning or straight up bad luck. 

(04-11-2023, 10:22 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Maybe not, but the team certainly felt like he will be capable of getting the job done, moreso than the guy that they spent a 1st round pick on that can't stay healthy.

The word "elite" is being cheapened in this day and age, as it is thrown around way too loosely.  By definition, elite means the best of the best.  In football terms that would imply a player of such superior quality that you might not see another equal to him but once every 10 years or so.  A true generational talent, if you will.

I don't think elite is the same thing as generational talent. That's why they have the term generational talent (which has also been cheapened and overused).

Personally I consider someone elite if they're currently in the top 10% (rounded down) of starters at their position.

(04-11-2023, 10:10 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Who is also not elite

But is always available. Jonah hasn’t been. We can’t count on him. His injury history has resulted in unavailability or drastically impacted play. We got the best FA option for LT this offseason. A guy no one confuses with munoz, but who can be counted on to play. 

You should be excited about this. I’m puzzled by anyone who isn’t. Other than jonah himself. Understandable, but at some point he’s going to have to face the facts of his unavailability.

(04-11-2023, 12:00 PM)SladeX Wrote: But is always available. Jonah hasn’t been. We can’t count on him. His injury history has resulted in unavailability or drastically impacted play. We got the best FA option for LT this offseason. A guy no one confuses with munoz, but who can be counted on to play. 

You should be excited about this. I’m puzzled by anyone who isn’t. Other than jonah himself. Understandable, but at some point he’s going to have to face the facts of his unavailability.

I never mentioned Brown’s health. That is why he is an upgrade. Never said any different. Simply just saying that Jonah nor Brown are elite tackles

Right just now we have a ton of OTs on the roster but it won't last. You figure we'll keep two starters and two backups. So that in and of itself means that between Jonah, LC, Ford, Carman, Smith and Adeniji not all are making the roster.

Another thing to consider is which of these OTs actually fit the way the building the line now? LT, LG, C and RG are all maulers. They all are much more power gap than zone types. This indicates to me that two that have an edge on staying are Ford and Carman. If LC shows up 100% and looks back to his pre back problem self he has an edge too. Smith and Adeniji seem disadvantaged here because Adeniji has no ability to anchor or drive and Smith is an injury cypher.

This leaves Jonah. Even in his healthy form power and anchor were not his strongest suits. And he is coming back not just from two dislocated kneecaps but surgery to try and lock one of them down better. It may help, but I really think he is better off on a team using a different line philosophy better suited to his strengths.