(04-11-2023, 06:45 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: people have discussed this before, but pro bowls are a joke. Brown is good, but everyone knows it's a popularity contest. He has name recognition and played for mvp Lamar and Mahomes

Whitworth only made the pro bowl twice his entire tenure with cincy, and he's a hall of fame talent

That might be pushing it a little bit. 

(04-12-2023, 12:24 PM)Sled21 Wrote: That might be pushing it a little bit. 

for almost a decade Whitworth was a top 5 elite left tackle. He wouldve had a lot more accolades if he didnt play for unpopular bengals teams. You know this, everyone knows this

(04-12-2023, 12:41 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: for almost a decade Whitworth was a top 5 elite left tackle. He wouldve had a lot more accolades if he didnt play for unpopular bengals teams. You know this, everyone knows this

That's kind of a stretch, wouldn't you agree?  Everyone can't possibly know, heck some people aren't even aware of NFL football, let alone knowledgeable fans of the sport.

(04-12-2023, 12:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If the man is an upgrade at the position, then why knock on him by adding in "who also isn't elite"?  Some people like to throw cold water on anything that the team does, maybe you're one of those people? 

what's the problem? Brown is a good LT. Lot of people here think he's elite like the quote by Isaac Curtis below. He is not. People cite his pro bowls as some type of proof that he's this great left tackle.

Im not raining on the parade. He's a little better than Jonah + he isnt injury prone, so Im happy with the signing. He is an upgrade. Just dont want people to think Cincy has Whitworth 2.0 on the roster. Brown is around the 9th-13th best LT in the league. Im fine with that. But he's not a top 5 tackle at all. Not even in the afc alone

(04-12-2023, 12:20 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Over the last 10-11 weeks of the season, and the post-season, I'd argue Brown was close to, if not, elite. At least in terms of pass protection. And, if he does get beat, you know where the problem is gonna be and can scheme for it. 

(04-12-2023, 12:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That's kind of a stretch, wouldn't you agree?  Everyone can't possibly know, heck some people aren't even aware of NFL football, let alone knowledgeable fans of the sport.

When I say everyone, I mean bengals fans. Whitworth should be a hall of famer. And I think he will make it due to his time with the Rams.

(04-12-2023, 12:51 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: When I say everyone, I mean bengals fans. Whitworth should be a hall of famer. And I think he will make it due to his time with the Rams.

If Big Willie is not in, Whitworth doesn't stand a chance. We had plenty of crappy O lines with Whit anchoring the left side.

(04-12-2023, 02:43 PM)Sled21 Wrote: If Big Willie is not in, Whitworth doesn't stand a chance. We had plenty of crappy O lines with Whit anchoring the left side.

sounds like you're sour on Whit because he was on the team that beat cincy in the super bowl...

Whit is one of the greatest Bengals of all time. He's a ring of honor guy and a hall of famer. Put your emotions to the wayside and think rationally 

(04-12-2023, 12:49 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: what's the problem? Brown is a good LT. Lot of people here think he's elite like the quote by Isaac Curtis below. He is not. People cite his pro bowls as some type of proof that he's this great left tackle.

Im not raining on the parade. He's a little better than Jonah + he isnt injury prone, so Im happy with the signing. He is an upgrade. Just dont want people to think Cincy has Whitworth 2.0 on the roster. Brown is around the 9th-13th best LT in the league. Im fine with that. But he's not a top 5 tackle at all. Not even in the afc alone

We will re-visit this next year.

Brown is not as athletic as you'd like at the LT position, BUT... up to this point in his career, he's been Protecting for 2 highly mobile QB's. 
It's harder on the OL to predict where those types of QB's will be at any given point. 

Anyways, i think Brown will enjoy more success as a Bengal than he would as a Raven/Chief as his strengths and weaknesses are better suited for a Step up in the pocket type of QB.

(04-12-2023, 03:10 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: We will re-visit this next year.

Brown is not as athletic as you'd like at the LT position, BUT... up to this point in his career, he's been Protecting for 2 highly mobile QB's. 
It's harder on the OL to predict where those types of QB's will be at any given point. 

Anyways, i think Brown will enjoy more success as a Bengal than he would as a Raven/Chief as his strengths and weaknesses are better suited for a Step up in the pocket type of QB.

I dont understand the problem. Why cant I just say he's good(fact) without you guys trying to prove that he's a great player? He's good. His whole career has been good. It's not a big deal if he isnt great. He's a solid left tackle who doesnt get injured, and whose contract isnt a detriment to the team. 

(04-12-2023, 12:41 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: for almost a decade Whitworth was a top 5 elite left tackle. He wouldve had a lot more accolades if he didnt play for unpopular bengals teams. You know this, everyone knows this

Just because Whit got snubbed playing for (mostly) poor Bengals teams does not make pro-Bowl voting meaningless. Guys who play for poor teams generally get snubbed on all-star/all-league teams unless the numbers/performance is overwhelming. If there is a comparable player on a winning/championship level team, those guys usually get the nod instead. Winning SHOULD matter some. Though more in sports with fewer players (NBA). 

Brown is a pro-Bowl guy 4 years running, at RT & LT, but not an all-pro. Just short of elite. When guys on that level are playing well, they are gonna look elite for stretches. But when their form dips for stretches, not so much. There are two components at play: peak performance and consistent level. Brown's peak is limited due to mobility limitations and he is a good/OK, not a great, run blocker. But he is remarkably consistent and durable. And when he does get beat in pass pro, he isn't getting beat for power or inside. It's predictable. And allows for the QB to step up & improvise. All pressures are not created equal. 

He is a significant upgrade to Jonah. Who gets beat more frequently, gets beat badly more frequently, and gets beat inside & outside & for power. And who is inferior to Brown run blocking. Jonah's best season (run or pass block) is better than Brown's worst. But the rest are worse than Brown's worst. 

(04-12-2023, 03:50 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Just because Whit got snubbed playing for (mostly) poor Bengals teams does not make pro-Bowl voting meaningless. Guys who play for poor teams generally get snubbed on all-star/all-league teams unless the numbers/performance is overwhelming. If there is a comparable player on a winning/championship level team, those guys usually get the nod instead. Winning SHOULD matter some. Though more in sports with fewer players (NBA). 

Brown is a pro-Bowl guy 4 years running, at RT & LT, but not an all-pro. Just short of elite. When guys on that level are playing well, they are gonna look elite for stretches. But when their form dips for stretches, not so much. There are two components at play: peak performance and consistent level. Brown's peak is limited due to mobility limitations and he is a good/OK, not a great, run blocker. But he is remarkably consistent and durable. And when he does get beat in pass pro, he isn't getting beat for power or inside. It's predictable. And allows for the QB to step up & improvise. All pressures are not created equal. 

He is a significant upgrade to Jonah. Who gets beat more frequently, gets beat badly more frequently, and gets beat inside & outside & for power. And who is inferior to Brown run blocking. Jonah's best season (run or pass block) is better than Brown's worst. But the rest are worse than Brown's worst. 

to the whit snubbing part, you're wrong. Whit played on mostly good teams. Six times(6) he was on playoff teams. Five times(5) he was not. So he played on playoff teams for the majority of his time in cincy.

A lesser player on a more popular team will usually get the rub over the better player on a less popular team.

Brown is a good tackle, but he's not "just short of elite". Not at all. If you're going by pro bowl voting and the success of his teams, I dont know what to tell you. He's very durable, and he is a little better than a healthy Jonah. 

If this is all you have to argue, dont even respond back

(04-12-2023, 02:51 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: sounds like you're sour on Whit because he was on the team that beat cincy in the super bowl...

Whit is one of the greatest Bengals of all time. He's a ring of honor guy and a hall of famer. Put your emotions to the wayside and think rationally 

I'm not sour on Whit at all. He is one of the greatest Bengals of all time (among many). He's a Ring of Honor guy. But, he was not the best Left Tackle of his era, and there are not that many tackles that get into the HOF.  His teams in Cincy never went past the 1st round in the playoffs. There are many Bengals who could be considered to have had better careers, but are not in. Willie Anderson, Kenny Anderson, Lamar Parrish, Bob Trumpy, James Brooks, Tim Krumrie, heck even Chad. AJ Green is not getting in either. That's not being sour, that's being realistic. Whit will always be overshadowed by Joe Thomas.

(04-12-2023, 03:20 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I dont understand the problem. Why cant I just say he's good(fact) without you guys trying to prove that he's a great player? He's good. His whole career has been good. It's not a big deal if he isnt great. He's a solid left tackle who doesnt get injured, and whose contract isnt a detriment to the team. 

Mike M has a great point about Orlando having to block for running QB's in Lamar and Mahomes. Burrow IS more of a pocket passer, so 
he honestly could be great here, he hasn't been so far, you are right Frank, he is good, but he could be great here, we will see.

Orlando not being the most athletic OT and not having to block all day while your QB is always taking off might of made him look worse
than he actually is. Burrow has a much quicker release, the fastest in the league with Brady retiring again.

(04-12-2023, 04:35 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I'm not sour on Whit at all. He is one of the greatest Bengals of all time (among many). He's a Ring of Honor guy. But, he was not the best Left Tackle of his era, and there are not that many tackles that get into the HOF.  His teams in Cincy never went past the 1st round in the playoffs. There are many Bengals who could be considered to have had better careers, but are not in. Willie Anderson, Kenny Anderson, Lamar Parrish, Bob Trumpy, James Brooks, Tim Krumrie, heck even Chad. AJ Green is not getting in either. That's not being sour, that's being realistic. Whit will always be overshadowed by Joe Thomas.

Geno has the best shot at getting into the HoF out of that era, imo.

Whit’s ring, and time in the spotlight (as an analyst) could help him though.

Brown has been well above average and that is with two QBs who like to hold the ball, like to scramble and don't drop back in a consistent manner to a consistent spot. If Brown does like he historically has and locks down the inside and is only beat by speed rushers going outside around him Burrow will be thrilled, as that plays into his game. And for run blocking a Power Gap scheme is perfect for him.

(04-12-2023, 12:49 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: what's the problem? Brown is a good LT. Lot of people here think he's elite like the quote by Isaac Curtis below. He is not. People cite his pro bowls as some type of proof that he's this great left tackle.

Im not raining on the parade. He's a little better than Jonah + he isnt injury prone, so Im happy with the signing. He is an upgrade. Just dont want people to think Cincy has Whitworth 2.0 on the roster. Brown is around the 9th-13th best LT in the league. Im fine with that. But he's not a top 5 tackle at all. Not even in the afc alone

Would you prefer your Left Tackles to NOT be nominated to the Probowl? I mean, come on. While that isn't some sort of be all end all barometer of dominance it at least means he isn't a middling player.

Also, I agree that Whitworth was a better player than Brown and will be a HOFer. I would go as far as to say that if Andrew Whitworth protected Tom Brady or Peyton Mannong throughout his career he would be considered one of the greatest limemen of all time.

Jonah Williams regressed horribly last year after a (FINALLY) decent/good 2021. Brown, given his history, is a significant upgrade. I don't see the problem anyone could have recognizing this. 5 years in the league and 4x Probowler on both sides of the line blows away what Williams has been able to do. And he was a reasonable price. Why the beef with it?

(04-13-2023, 05:07 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Would you prefer your Left Tackles to NOT be nominated to the Probowl? I mean, come on. While that isn't some sort of be all end all barometer of dominance it at least means he isn't a middling player.

Also, I agree that Whitworth was a better player than Brown and will be a HOFer. I would go as far as to say that if Andrew Whitworth protected Tom Brady or Peyton Mannong throughout his career he would be considered one of the greatest limemen of all time.

Jonah Williams regressed horribly last year after a (FINALLY) decent/good 2021. Brown, given his history, is a significant upgrade. I don't see the problem anyone could have recognizing this. 5 years in the league and 4x Probowler on both sides of the line blows away what Williams has been able to do. And he was a reasonable price. Why the beef with it?

Huntley being a Pro Bowl Quarterback is everything I need to know about the value of Pro Bowls. Cool for the fun factor for our guys to be selected, but not very meaningful when determining how good a player is.

(04-13-2023, 06:06 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Huntley being a Pro Bowl Quarterback is everything I need to know about the value of Pro Bowls. Cool for the fun factor for our guys to be selected, but not very meaningful when determining how good a player is.

You just have to differentiate starters and replacement players.

(04-13-2023, 06:06 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Huntley being a Pro Bowl Quarterback is everything I need to know about the value of Pro Bowls. Cool for the fun factor for our guys to be selected, but not very meaningful when determining how good a player is.

He was replacement to a replacement to a replacement to a replacement.

Shane Falco almost got called up to the pro bowl.

I love Whittworth. Does anyone have any PFF grades on him? I see lots of emotional comments, but nothing based on facts.

I seem to remember Whittworth was not a stud in line blocking OT for the run game, but maybe I am wrong.

I get we want a LT who is great at pass blocking, but to be elite, a LT has to be both. Can anyone provide facts, I am not sure my comment is correct on his run blocking, so either way it would give us something to have a discussion.