(04-13-2023, 06:06 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Huntley being a Pro Bowl Quarterback is everything I need to know about the value of Pro Bowls. Cool for the fun factor for our guys to be selected, but not very meaningful when determining how good a player is.

Blanket statements like that don't make sense.

I think each year and each position would have to be looked at to see who was invited 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc because so many players decline to go play. Like, who declined and hownfar down the list was Brown? Same w Huntley. Notnsure you can weigh that all equally.

That being said... Has Jonah Williams ever been, like, the 3rd, 4th, 5th(?) best LT in the AFC Probowl voting and even been given the option to decline or play?

BTW, Orlando Brown was 1st selection to Probowl in 2022 AND 2021. That is WAY more valuable of a statement than Tyler Huntley being the 10th QB by default or whatever. It isn't reasonablento weight those 2 the same.

(04-12-2023, 03:20 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I dont understand the problem. Why cant I just say he's good(fact) without you guys trying to prove that he's a great player? He's good. His whole career has been good. It's not a big deal if he isnt great. He's a solid left tackle who doesnt get injured, and whose contract isnt a detriment to the team. 

You have made claims that Jonah is above average and Brown is good. Those two things are not equal or FACTS, as you say.

The problem is your inconsistency.

(04-13-2023, 09:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Blanket statements like that don't make sense.

I think each year and each position would have to be looked at to see who was invited 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc because so many players decline to go play. Like, who declined and hownfar down the list was Brown? Same w Huntley. Notnsure you can weigh that all equally.

That being said... Has Jonah Williams ever been, like, the 3rd, 4th, 5th(?) best LT in the AFC Probowl voting and even been given the option to decline or play?

BTW, Orlando Brown was 1st selection to Probowl in 2022 AND 2021. That, to ke, is WAY more valuable of a statement than Tyler Huntley being the 10th QB by default or whatever. It isn't reasonablento weight those 2 the same.

No Jonah has never been in consideration for any accolades at the professional level, not yet.

(04-13-2023, 09:41 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: No Jonah has never been in consideration for any accolades at the professional level, not yet.

Oh, 100% for sure. My statement was rhetorical. lol. Of course he hasn't. He isn't a bust... but knowing what Jonah is 4 years later, would anyone take him in the 3rd round? Maybe... MAYBE.

I love it when people say Probowl is a popularity contest. Sometimes.... but the guys who tend to be popular are also playing on the better teams. They are better players. In know Whitworth didn't make it a bunch because the Bengals weren't popular. But here's a fact that will blow people's minds.... Last year the Bengals were ranked the 10th most popular team in ALL of American sports. So, the Bengals ARE now popular and have been for 2 seasons.... And Jonah STILL didn't sniff the Probowl or get any kinid of invite. He was injured, yes, but he also is kind of just ok. So, plane ticket for Jonah wasn't coming regardless.

No one should care Jonah Williams isn't going to be a Bengal in 2023. Hell, even Jonah Williams doesn't care. That says more about him than anything.

(04-13-2023, 09:46 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Oh, 100% for sure. My statement was rhetorical. lol. Of course he hasn't. He isn't a bust... but knowing what Jonah is 4 years later, would anyone take him in the 3rd round? Maybe... MAYBE.

I love it when people say Probowl is a popularity contest. Sometimes.... but the guys who tend to be popular are also playing on the better teams. They are better players. In know Whitworth didn't make it a bunch because the Bengals weren't popular. But here's a fact that will blow people's minds.... Last year the Bengals were ranked the 10th most popular team in ALL of American sports. So, the Bengals ARE now popular and have been for 2 seasons.... And Jonah STILL didn't sniff the Probowl or get any kinid of invite. He was injured, yes, but he also is kind of just ok. So, plane ticket for Jonah wasn't coming regardless.

No one should care Jonah Williams isn't going to be a Bengal in 2023. Hell, even Jonah Williams doesn't care. That says more about him than anything.

Other than his trade request there's been no indication he won't be a Bengal in 2023. He may well have to go the Dunlap route to get that request to be honored.

(04-13-2023, 08:32 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I love Whittworth. Does anyone have any PFF grades on him? I see lots of emotional comments, but nothing based on facts.

I seem to remember Whittworth was not a stud in line blocking OT for the run game, but maybe I am wrong.

I get we want a LT who is great at pass blocking, but to be elite, a LT has to be both. Can anyone provide facts, I am not sure my comment is correct on his run blocking, so either way it would give us something to have a discussion.

Welp...that's where you went off the rails. PFF grades are most certainly not facts. 

(04-13-2023, 10:16 AM)jason Wrote: Other than his trade request there's been no indication he won't be a Bengal in 2023. He may well have to go the Dunlap route to get that request to be honored.

Huh? What more do you need to see the writing on the wall?

- Player publicly whined and cried about wanting a trade.
- Bengals tested waters at the various FO gatherings
- Player has refused to learn a new position... did the same in college when he refused to move to Center when asked. He does NOT want to be a Rat and will be bad at it.
- Bengals signed Cody Ford and told him he could compete for starting RT.
- Draft has several strong RT candidates that the Bengals have brought in for 1 on 1 visits
- Bengals have a strong history of trading guys who have publically expressed not wanting to be on the team.

Other than the announcement that Williams has been traded, what more evidence do YOU need to see, read, or hear that says the Bengals will keep this guy on the roster by week 1?

Barring an injury to Brown all signs point to gone. At this point, anyone not believe that's the Bengals move/intentions need to offer up some thinga that indicate they will keep him. What is there outnthere? Pollack immediately saying he wanted to coach him? Pffffft! Everything the Bengals have done after that initial comment says he is gone.

Same with Mixon. He is gone. They are just waiting until after the draft. Cutting him now screams "DRAFTING A RUNNINGBACK." The Bengals are going to keep him on the roster to not show their carss and then dump him, too.

(04-13-2023, 11:08 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Welp...that's where you went off the rails. PFF grades are most certainly not facts. 

Therein lies the problem.  Too many are using these vague, highly subjective assigned values as absolute measures of skill and ability.

(04-13-2023, 11:08 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Welp...that's where you went off the rails. PFF grades are most certainly not facts. 

Sure PFF is data (facts), more so than a poster's opinion.

At least it is a starting point

(04-13-2023, 12:16 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Sure PFF is data (facts), more so than a poster's opinion.

At least it is a starting point

but not when it comes to certain players. Then pff doesnt matter

I just want to know when it matters and when it doesnt

(04-13-2023, 12:42 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: but not when it comes to certain players. Then pff doesnt matter

I just want to know when it matters and when it doesnt

allowing zero sacks in the SB matters

(04-13-2023, 09:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Blanket statements like that don't make sense.

I think each year and each position would have to be looked at to see who was invited 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc because so many players decline to go play. Like, who declined and hownfar down the list was Brown? Same w Huntley. Notnsure you can weigh that all equally.

That being said... Has Jonah Williams ever been, like, the 3rd, 4th, 5th(?) best LT in the AFC Probowl voting and even been given the option to decline or play?

BTW, Orlando Brown was 1st selection to Probowl in 2022 AND 2021. That is WAY more valuable of a statement than Tyler Huntley being the 10th QB by default or whatever. It isn't reasonablento weight those 2 the same.

Completely agree, it is one thing to say the Pro Bowl is a joke which I think most would agree, but to get voted as the 1st player at
your position is an honor regardless of what Frank says. Jonah sure as hell was never voted the best at his position in the AFC.

Huntley is an outlier. He was in by default as you say.

(04-13-2023, 01:18 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Completely agree, it is one thing to say the Pro Bowl is a joke which I think most would agree, but to get voted as the 1st player at
your position is an honor regardless of what Frank says. Jonah sure as hell was never voted the best at his position in the AFC.

Huntley is an outlier. He was in by default as you say.

an honor? to Brown? sure. His dad was a famous football player and OBjr has played for the best teams in the league. The casual fans who vote o-line go by name recognition and team success. I know thats what I used to do when I was a kid.

It still doesnt mean he's a top 3 afc tackle. At all. He's like the 6th best left tackle in the afc. Which is fine. Im cool with it. It's ok that he isnt a legit top 3 afc left tackle. It's really not a big deal. Orlando Brown jr doesnt need your defense. 

And there are right tackles who get snubbed all the time due to them being right tackles. If we're talking tackles from both positions, Brown isnt even top 6 in the afc

and it's nothing to get pissy about. Really. 

(04-13-2023, 01:32 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: an honor? to Brown? sure. His dad was a famous football player and OBjr has played for the best teams in the league. The casual fans who vote o-line go by name recognition and team success. I know thats what I used to do when I was a kid.

It still doesnt mean he's a top 3 afc tackle. At all. He's like the 6th best left tackle in the afc. Which is fine. Im cool with it. It's ok that he isnt a legit top 3 afc left tackle. It's really not a big deal. Orlando Brown jr doesnt need your defense. 

And there are right tackles who get snubbed all the time due to them being right tackles. If we're talking tackles from both positions, Brown isnt even top 6 in the afc

and it's nothing to get pissy about. Really. 

Not pissy about it, you sound pissy about it lol

Jonah hasn't even sniffed a pro bowl nod and Orlando Brown Jr could be better here than he was with the Ravens or the Chiefs 
because of Burrow's quick release and the way Burrow likes to step up into the pocket on short drops. Sure wouldn't surprise me
if Orlando jumped up that AFC Tackle ranking here.

(04-13-2023, 01:38 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not pissy about it, you sound pissy about it lol

Jonah hasn't even sniffed a pro bowl nod and Orlando Brown Jr could be better here than he was with the Ravens or the Chiefs 
because of Burrow's quick release and the way Burrow likes to step up into the pocket on short drops. Sure wouldn't surprise me
if Orlando jumped up that AFC Tackle ranking here.

once again, who cares. You're still arguing casual fan voting. Stop it. PFF certainly thinks Jonah's 2021 was better than any OBjr year. Just saying thats what they think.

(04-13-2023, 01:44 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: once again, who cares. You're still arguing casual fan voting. Stop it. PFF certainly thinks Jonah's 2021 was better than any OBjr year. Just saying thats what they think.

pfffff 

(04-13-2023, 12:16 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Sure PFF is data (facts), more so than a poster's opinion.

At least it is a starting point

It's just someone else's opinion.

I think something will break on a Jonah trade soon. I think they are working on what round he brings

(04-13-2023, 12:16 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Sure PFF is data (facts), more so than a poster's opinion.

At least it is a starting point

PFF grades are not data. They are opinions given by seasonal, part-time, low paid analysts. PFF Premium Stats is data, and is very good. 

(04-13-2023, 12:16 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Sure PFF is data (facts), more so than a poster's opinion.

At least it is a starting point

PFF are assessments of the person (or people) grading.
Depending on who is doing the grading and who the poster is, the poster might be more accurate in their opinion over the assessment of PFF.
However, I've always had the general belief that aside from a very, very select few fans, PFF graders watch far more game film specifically on a player and thus are likely more equipped to accurately grade them than someone like myself.
So I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt despite knowing it can ultimately be a subjective opinion.