(06-07-2015, 11:36 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Thank you. 
I don't know if we could afford Mack. I really doubt it.


To a degree I understand. But I think the hand aspect, firing inside, delivering a punch etc....that stuff is more natural and comes under whether or not that player has that explosive nasty attitude. 

I agree with you that I doubt we could afford Mack

I don't have enough knowledge to determine if a person can overcome something like the hand aspect you refer to.  It may be a hand/eye coordination thing - which I think you either have or you don't.  It can be honed but not changed - otherwise I could fight my way out of a paper bag - which I can't.

I do think he has the nasty attitude.   At least he has a reputation for it - and he certainly does with the press.

Really nice post.  A lot of detail and good thinking.

(06-08-2015, 02:42 AM)Stormborn Wrote: See this thread? This is what a thread should aspire to become.

Bodine is probably the easiest guy to get a read on. He lacks proper functional strength to anchor  and has shorter than average arms to win at first contact. It's hard to maintain and drive through blocks when you lack these two qualities without refined and excellent technique, which you hit on repeatedly and immensely.

Solid 2 thumbs up.

Alexander obviously thought coaching could overcome his liabilities.   When you're dealing with functional strength and short arms you definitely have difficult things to overcome.

But  he would not be the first good offensive lineman with short arms and less than desirable strength.

Hope Alexander can get it done.  We should know by the end of this season.

(06-08-2015, 02:55 PM)3wt Wrote: Alexander obviously thought coaching could overcome his liabilities.   When you're dealing with functional strength and short arms you definitely have difficult things to overcome.

But  he would not be the first good offensive lineman with short arms and less than desirable strength.

Hope Alexander can get it done.  We should know by the end of this season.

He wouldn't be, but those who set that precedent are some of the best technicians technicians in the game. Bodine eventually needs to get to that range of craft if he wants to be in the league long.

It's not exactly fair to him though, he wasn't really ready to start right out of college and was thrown in none-the-less with practically no obstacles for him to overcome. Some rookies succeed in these situations because they're at least athletically gifted or naturally strong, neither really the case for Bodine.

(06-08-2015, 02:55 PM)3wt Wrote: Alexander obviously thought coaching could overcome his liabilities.   When you're dealing with functional strength and short arms you definitely have difficult things to overcome.

But  he would not be the first good offensive lineman with short arms and less than desirable strength.

Hope Alexander can get it done.  We should know by the end of this season.

Of course he wouldn't be the first, but as Stormborn said those are true masters of technique. Nick Mangold being a shining example. He has damn near flawless technique and he's got the core/back strength to anchor and recover. Joe Thomas is another. You can have all the size in the world, but if you can't functionally use it...the same goes for his strength everyone noted on the bench, you can bench a Buick, but if you can't get it working with the rest of your body to show up on the field, what good is it? 

(06-08-2015, 03:14 PM)Stormborn Wrote: He wouldn't be, but those who set that precedent are some of the best technicians technicians in the game. Bodine eventually needs to get to that range of craft if he wants to be in the league long.

It's not exactly fair to him though, he wasn't really ready to start right out of college and was thrown in none-the-less with practically no obstacles for him to overcome. Some rookies succeed in these situations because they're at least athletically gifted or naturally strong, neither really the case for Bodine.

Right, he's a guy who can stick around and never be great but be okay enough you don't HAVE to go and get a better player if you have good guards. 

(06-08-2015, 11:19 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote:  Players rarely change with their hands, you can fix things like bad footwork, false steps, base too wide etc...but the problem with hands is that they are more connected to the attitude. The big punch off the snap, quick inside hands. Bodine's short arms and lack of punch make it very difficult for him to win positioning. 

This just is not true.

Hand placement is a technique and not an attitude.

Playing Center in the NFL is not easy. There is a lot to learn for a rookie who is asked to start. In fact there is a lot more than can be learned in just one year. That is why most NFL players improve from their rookie seasons. Especially O-linemen.

If Bodine struggled to learn how to read and adjust to NFL defenses, then his lack of confidence could have been why he was slower to get to his spot. If he had to spend all of his time learning the playbook then he may not have had time for subtle things like precise footwork, hand placement, and optimum leverage. As I said before he even struggled with making clean snaps early in training camp last year. When a guy is having problems making clean snaps footwork drills are way down on the priority list.

Bodine needs to improve a lot. I think we all agree on that. I just don't know why some people have it out for the guy so bad. Some people have just not liked him since we drafted him. I'm sure if I had the time to watch all the film I could find plenty of examples of Bodine making good blocks. I appreciate all the work that went into creating this thread, but I disagree that a player can not improve even minor things like explosiveness after their rookie seasons.

I've been waiting for this thread from you since the end of the Bengals season. I was not disappointed. Good job on everything and great work on film study.

There were definitely times last year where I had to remind myself that Bodine was a rookie, a 4th round rookie at that. He's the one starter that I could see getting bumped if the coaches are serious about getting Fisher on the field. Bodine would be great depth right now. He does have a lot of work to do as of right now.

From what we know, how is the talent behind Bodine? Say, if he is out for a series for some reason, how much worse will we be at Center?

(06-08-2015, 06:32 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: From what we know, how is the talent behind Bodine? Say, if he is out for a series for some reason, how much worse will we be at Center?

Well, it isn't pretty. 
The kid we picked up from Marshall (Jasperse) is a year or two away and probably profiles as a back up. Similar to Bodine in a lot of ways.
TJ Johnson is just there. He's a career backup. 
Ideally, we'd give Boling and Zeitler reps there to see if they could handle it and give Fisher or Hopkins a shot at G. 

(06-08-2015, 04:29 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I've been waiting for this thread from you since the end of the Bengals season. I was not disappointed. Good job on everything and great work on film study.

Well I've been surprised by the replies being mostly open to discussion and debate except for one of the blanket defenders of the team. 
I plan on hitting Zeitler and maybe Boling as those were the only other OL who saw significant enough PT to care about. Whit's would be the most boring damn thing ever. 

(06-08-2015, 05:01 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: There were definitely times last year where I had to remind myself that Bodine was a rookie, a 4th round rookie at that. He's the one starter that I could see getting bumped if the coaches are serious about getting Fisher on the field. Bodine would be great depth right now. He does have a lot of work to do as of right now.

Once you get NAMED the starter with no competition (Pollak should have had a shot), the whole being a "X round rookie" thing loses a lot of water. We had a guy who should have been out there for competition sake. It isn't like we had diddly at center. 

He is good depth...which is what he probably should be. 

I really appreciate the very effective work you did on getting this post together.

I think Bodine will improve. He has great strength, which I don't think he has learned to fully employ yet, and I think that will come as he becomes more acclimated to what defenses are doing. Confusion was slowing him down, as it would anyone, and I think he'll really come along on that in his second year.

(06-08-2015, 07:52 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Well I've been surprised by the replies being mostly open to discussion and debate except for one of the blanket defenders of the team. 
I plan on hitting Zeitler and maybe Boling as those were the only other OL who saw significant enough PT to care about. Whit's would be the most boring damn thing ever.

I think your take on Zeitler would be the most interesting, as you noticed a ton of key elements and differences between his rookie and sophmore season. Boling I feel would be one that many people would discuss and see many ups and downs, rather than just blanketed homers.

(06-08-2015, 07:52 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Well I've been surprised by the replies being mostly open to discussion and debate except for one of the blanket defenders of the team. 

How do you define "open for discussion"?

Isn't pointing out to you that hand placement is a technique instead of a physical skill "discussion"?

Isn't pointing out that most O-linemen improve from their rookie level "discussion"?

Or do you just consider comments like "good job" as discussion.

Why don't you make this a poll and see how many people agree with your claim that Bodine can not improve from his rookies season?

(06-09-2015, 07:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: How do you define "open for discussion"?

Isn't pointing out to you that hand placement is a technique instead of a physical skill "discussion"?

Isn't pointing out that most O-linemen improve from their rookie level "discussion"?

Or do you just consider comments like "good job" as discussion.

Why don't you make this a poll and see how many people agree with your claim that Bodine can not improve from his rookies season?

Just further proof you didn't really read a damn thing I wrote and went straight to defend mode. 
Keep digging fred. 

1st excellent post.

Yes, Bodine struggled at times last season but he was threw to the wolves in the AFC North in his rookie year. There isn't a doubt in my mind that his technique can & will improve. O-line should be a strength for years to come.

(06-09-2015, 01:04 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: 1st excellent post.

Yes, Bodine struggled at times last season but he was threw to the wolves in the AFC North in his rookie year. There isn't a doubt in my mind that his technique can & will improve. O-line should be a strength for years to come.

I don't think the "wolves" of the AFCN are what people think they are.

Brandon Williams the Baltimore NT is a very good player.
McClendon from Pitt is solid but no Casey Hampton.
And Cleveland routinely ran scrubs out there. 

Ngata spends most of his time at DE now. 
Cam Heyward is a DE. 

(06-09-2015, 02:34 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I think your take on Zeitler would be the most interesting, as you noticed a ton of key elements and differences between his rookie and sophmore season. Boling I feel would be one that many people would discuss and see many ups and downs, rather than just blanketed homers.

I was thinking Boling next. 
Could really get guys thinking on him. 

(06-09-2015, 12:06 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Just further proof you didn't really read a damn thing I wrote and went straight to defend mode. 
Keep digging fred. 

I agree with Fred and I did read your post. You are claiming Bodine cant improve and im not knocking what you said because it is true as far as his technique. Which in my opinion can be improved. 

But you are making it seem like he just cant improve. Cook was an upgrade from gutcheck and was considered average. To me Bodine is clearly an upgrade from Cook who was average so in that line of thinking he is above average. 

Why in the would would u cut an above average rookie/move on from him after one year?

Especially when everyone knows players improve from one year to the next. I just dont understand you thinking on this but your write up of Bodine is spot on. Your call to arms over his skill set is a bit premature.

(06-09-2015, 02:20 PM)CincyProduct Wrote: I agree with Fred and I did read your post. You are claiming Bodine cant improve and im not knocking what you said because it is true as far as his technique. Which in my opinion can be improved. 

But you are making it seem like he just cant improve. Cook was an upgrade from gutcheck and was considered average. To me Bodine is clearly an upgrade from Cook who was average so in that line of thinking he is above average. 

Why in the would would u cut an above average rookie/move on from him after one year?

Especially when everyone knows players improve from one year to the next. I just dont understand you thinking on this but your write up of Bodine is spot on. Your call to arms over his skill set is a bit premature.

And this is where I stopped reading. 
There is no way you can honestly think that unless you are just applying the horseshit logic of "He isn't Cook so he's better."

Cook was a good center. He had one bad year when he got injured and his legs never regained their strength and it fell apart for him.

Again, technique can be improved to a degree. But you can't just make someone a puncher. You can't just say "Okay, now I'm going to be a violent puncher" You either have it or you don't. If it were so easy to fix technique, why are there busts in the NFL? 

For gods sake, it wasn't a call to arms. It wasn't a call to cut him. I'm not sure where you and fred get this delusional crap. I never said cut him. I never said he couldn't get better. I said it would be hard and it would be against the odds. He has physical limitations. Players generally do not change who they are. Ones that do usually have a physical transformation. 

I mean seriously, if this is what you took away from the post I seriously have to question what your reading comprehension level is. I mean I even say he should stick in the league. But your backwards world, that's a call to arms to cut him?