This is the post:

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-La-El-Collins-opt-out?pid=1334410#pid1334410

Look at the trendiness - all in the right direction. And yes he was right about at average by the time things wound up. And this was with the LT next to him being unable to anchor and missing a lot to the inside - which hurts Guard play a lot.

(06-07-2023, 06:44 PM)Joelist Wrote: This is the post:

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-La-El-Collins-opt-out?pid=1334410#pid1334410

Look at the trendiness - all in the right direction. And yes he was right about at average by the time things wound up. And this was with the LT next to him being unable to anchor and missing a lot to the inside - which hurts Guard play a lot.

The top two graphs mean his percentages were higher, which means he was below average, not above. 

Even being 'closer to average' at the end, means he was below average. 

Considering he was a 4th round small school player, for him to be right in the middle of 6 other rookies who played similar snaps is a positive. I'm just not going to sit here and say the dude is going to make some massive leap to being a "top" G in the NFL. He has a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go to get there. 

I think unless a superstar rookie all improve quite a bit in year 2. Volson coming from a small school and mediocre competition did decent. I think he will indeed do well in ‘23

With all the hype some of our fans have kept giving Volson since he was drafted and the talk about how he was not bad and was playing at an average level and all the talk about how much Volson should improve from his 1st year to his second year there should be absolutely no excuses from anybody this year that Volson should not grade out well about average, especially with Brown now at LT and Karras having a full season in the system. No more Volson excuses this year.

(06-07-2023, 05:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I remember it was late in the season last year after playing the Titans and stealers where there was somebody showing Volson with 
very high PFF grades. It is PFF so take that with a grain of salt. But to play good against Jeffrey Simmons and Cam Heyward is a pretty 
good sign for a rookie Guard.

He didn't even have average grades in those games and he didn't play well against them. His pass blocking grade against Pitt was 21. 

(06-07-2023, 10:35 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He didn't even have average grades in those games and he didn't play well against them. His pass blocking grade against Pitt was 21. 

There are some narratives you just cannot stop. I hope CV becomes an All-Pro, but nothing he did last year was "promising". He was the worst starter on a poor oline. Hakeem Adeniji was rated higher

On the top two graphs lower is better. His trend line pointed lower so he improved. And I also take into account playing next to a LT who couldn't anchor and was getting beat to the inside consistently - that makes the life of a Guard rather more complicated. Also, the coaches who work with these players evaluated Volson and are high on him, and they know more than we do (for example what all the assignments were on every play).

(06-07-2023, 09:30 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The top two graphs mean his percentages were higher, which means he was below average, not above. 

Even being 'closer to average' at the end, means he was below average. 

Considering he was a 4th round small school player, for him to be right in the middle of 6 other rookies who played similar snaps is a positive. I'm just not going to sit here and say the dude is going to make some massive leap to being a "top" G in the NFL. He has a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go to get there. 

I believe that's 3 to many O's but I get what you're saying.

Sure, his teammate is gonna talk him up. And that's a factor. But I still think to be a 4th rounder, small school, blah, blah he did ok. And I'm kinda anxious to see if he can improve this year.

(06-07-2023, 10:57 PM)Joelist Wrote: On the top two graphs lower is better. His trend line pointed lower so he improved. And I also take into account playing next to a LT who couldn't anchor and was getting beat to the inside consistently - that makes the life of a Guard rather more complicated. Also, the coaches who work with these players evaluated Volson and are high on him, and they know more than we do (for example what all the assignments were on every play).

What these oline coaches that know more than us showed me last year:

Ted Karras went from a 72 rating in 2021 to a 62 rating in 2022

Alex Cappa went from 73 to 67

La'el Collins went from 82 to 57

These oline coaches have shown they can take rookies and make them bad and turn decent veteran starters into mediocre. 

(06-07-2023, 10:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There are some narratives you just cannot stop. I hope CV becomes an All-Pro, but nothing he did last year was "promising". He was the worst starter on a poor oline. Hakeem Adeniji was rated higher

Yep. I just don't get it. The one and only thing anyone has to hang their hats on, regarding Volson improving, is "hope" and hope doesn't have a tangible effect on jack shit.

(06-07-2023, 10:57 PM)Joelist Wrote: On the top two graphs lower is better. His trend line pointed lower so he improved. And I also take into account playing next to a LT who couldn't anchor and was getting beat to the inside consistently - that makes the life of a Guard rather more complicated. Also, the coaches who work with these players evaluated Volson and are high on him, and they know more than we do (for example what all the assignments were on every play).

What do assignments have to do with being thrown around like a rag doll? How hard is it to know an assignment when you see 2 guys blocking one defender while another defender loops around on a stunt, unimpeded to the QB and the guy he runs right by is Volson?

(06-07-2023, 11:00 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I believe that's 3 to many O's but I get what you're saying.

Sure, his teammate is gonna talk him up. And that's a factor. But I still think to be a 4th rounder, small school, blah, blah he did ok. And I'm kinda anxious to see if he can improve this year.

Sure, he did "ok" considering. Do you want guys to just be "ok", blocking for Burrow and the RBs?

My problem with the whole this is twofold; he didn't improve incrimentally throughout the season. He was up and down all season after the disaster vs Pitt in game 1. Then you have people talking about some '2nd year leap' as if it's a given. 

As soon as the guy starts playing like an average NFL OG, i'll be happy to say he's an average NFL OG. I don't see anything from year one that shows something to build on with the expectation that year 2 is going to be better. He doesn't have great strenght, balance or awareness with just a lack of experience. Truth is, he's lacking in those exact areas.

He's the starter today but the goal is still ti win a ring. Rather than debate the glass being half full or empty let's look at what is practical. They didn't doubt him enough to sign a vet, but there is a logjam at RT and the line now has depth.

Maybe Volson takes the next step, but maybe footsteps are made by Kirkland, Brown, Ford, ect.. if he doesn't improve. A cheap young LG on this roster for 3 more years is valuable but I'll trust the staff to have a contingency plan. If Collins continues to heal well, you'll have 3 legit RT options. You could loathe moving JC or Jonah again, but if it helps make you better you have to consider it.

(06-07-2023, 09:30 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The top two graphs mean his percentages were higher, which means he was below average, not above. 

Even being 'closer to average' at the end, means he was below average. 

Considering he was a 4th round small school player, for him to be right in the middle of 6 other rookies who played similar snaps is a positive. I'm just not going to sit here and say the dude is going to make some massive leap to being a "top" G in the NFL. He has a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go to get there. 

Those little line graphs really don't mean squat. He faced Chris Jones and stoned him. Same with Heyward, Simmons and several other premiere defensive linemen. If the line graph doesn't show who he's playing against, it's meaningless because some guard playing meh d lineman is obviously going to skew it. Just like looking at college players, you have to look at the competition he faced. 

(06-07-2023, 11:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What these oline coaches that know more than us showed me last year:

Ted Karras went from a 72 rating in 2021 to a 62 rating in 2022

Alex Cappa went from 73 to 67

La'el Collins went from 82 to 57

These oline coaches have shown they can take rookies and make them bad and turn decent veteran starters into mediocre. 

This is a bunch of bull as well. Collins was playing injured. Cappa was playing next to an injured Collins, and then when Collins was out I don't even remember right now who was RT, Adeniji? And you're going to ding the coaches because guys were hurt? Karras is the only one that dropping might be worrisome, but the eye test tells me Ted played just fine. 

I'm not poo-pooing Volson in this case, but people MUST stop with the whole Small School thing, as I've mentioned many times in the past: yeah NDSU is FCS school, but that has more to do with location and field size.

They are a mid-tier FBS school (somewhere between upper-level G5 and lower-level P5) if their stadium is larger.

(06-07-2023, 11:28 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Sure, he did "ok" considering. Do you want guys to just be "ok", blocking for Burrow and the RBs?

My problem with the whole this is twofold; he didn't improve incrimentally throughout the season. He was up and down all season after the disaster vs Pitt in game 1. Then you have people talking about some '2nd year leap' as if it's a given. 

As soon as the guy starts playing like an average NFL OG, i'll be happy to say he's an average NFL OG. I don't see anything from year one that shows something to build on with the expectation that year 2 is going to be better. He doesn't have great strenght, balance or awareness with just a lack of experience. Truth is, he's lacking in those exact areas.

Nope, not at all

I've stated in many threads over the last few months if Volson can be replaced with a better player, do it. He shouldn't be penciled in as the starting LG. If Carman or whoever is better, put them in there. Our Oline has been our downfall for two years in a row. Lets not make it three.

I just haven't gave up hope that Volson can take the next step. If he can't so be it. Best 5 on the field 

(06-08-2023, 08:35 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Those little line graphs really don't mean squat. He faced Chris Jones and stoned him. Same with Heyward, Simmons and several other premiere defensive linemen. If the line graph doesn't show who he's playing against, it's meaningless because some guard playing meh d lineman is obviously going to skew it. Just like looking at college players, you have to look at the competition he faced. 

You're on drugs. I just watched the Pitt and Tenn games last night and that literally didn't happen. 

You can't blow smoke up my ass.

Just remember that on an OL continuity is important. One of the reasons we had problems early last season was the line had 4 new starters who before Opening Day had never even taken a snap together - it showed. Once they had enough reps the cohesion improved and the line play did too, to the point that we hit a stretch before the injuries where they were pass blocking in the upper tier. This is also why you don't want to be moving linemen around a lot - a lot of the blocking depends on the linemen knowing instinctively what the others will do in a given situation.

While this doesn't mean you just leave a poor player in, it does mean that lineup changes are not the first resort but rather the last one.

(06-08-2023, 10:27 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You're on drugs. I just watched the Pitt and Tenn games last night and that literally didn't happen. 

You can't blow smoke up my ass.

Don't remember Volson getting beat either. It is somewhere in between, he wasn't as bad as you and Bfine make out and he wasn't 
great against Heyward and Simmons, but it was encouraging. Those guys manhandle a lot of starting Guards in the NFL and didn't 
manhandle Volson late in the season.

You guys don't need to go out of your way to hate on the guy. Sled is right on those line graphs, they don't mean shit.