(06-12-2023, 01:03 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I don’t think there’s any question that Joe needs to be more decisive in his running. But geez I’d be gun shy too after all these years. Seriously

Which is why I wanted Dalvin Cook in that draft. You should have had to suffer through that "offensive line" he ran behind at FSU as a fan, lol. 

Seriously, that's why I thought he would be a good fit here. We had a porous oline, he ran behind one in college. In fact, the losing would've started earlier in Tallahassee without him in the backfield. It's been a rough few years, but they're finally righting the ship up front, and it showed in the win column last season. Cook was able to get lost in the big bodies, then spring free for gains and the homerun here and there. I felt like he was better suited for our bad line.

(06-12-2023, 01:01 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: But Andy did not have Zac . There lies the difference

Yes, he did.

(06-11-2023, 10:25 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yup

I think Chase Brown kinda flew under the radar last season. He just might turn some heads soon. I'm not saying the guy is the next Walter Payton. But I do feel he might become a decent contributor before this season is over.

Was leading the nation in rushing before he got dinged up. Looks crazy fast in OTA's too. If Mixon continues to struggle with his vision,
balance and pass protection, Chase Brown has a shot at a lot of snaps with Perine now in Denver.

(06-11-2023, 10:35 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Many comments in this thread that are ignoring some real context.

Much of Mixon's apparent dancing was during wide-zone runs in which the RB has to be patient and find a hole.  Perine literally never ran these types of runs. His were all gap, hit the hole and go.  Thus Perine appeared to be more deliberate.  See Mixon vs Buffalo and straight gap guns.  I think Joe had an awful season for him but I think he still has juice.  Thinking a 4th round rookie is coming in and taking Mixon's spot is a bit naive, IMHO.

As KillerGoose said, both Mixon and Perine had about the same percentage of Gap scheme runs and Zone runs, so not necessarily 
true. You could see who had the better vision, Mixon definitely is more explosive of the 2 RB's but that doesn't matter if his balance 
is so bad that he is tripping forward all the time.

BTW Chase Brown was a 5th round pick which helps your point, but where RB's are drafted now a days is deceiving. Grading all the
RB's in that Draft only Bijan Robinson had better balance and both were about the same in pass pro. Both have great vision. Truly 
think Chase Brown in the 5th was a major steal that late.

(06-12-2023, 05:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yes, he did.

Pay attention he did not have Zac’s support to stay. You said Andy had Zac and Mike Browns support like Joe. That’s false. He did not have Zac’s

(06-13-2023, 12:01 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Pay attention he did not have Zac’s support to stay. You said Andy had Zac and Mike Browns support like Joe. That’s false. He did not have Zac’s

I think he had Zac's support initially, until Zac found out for himself about "Bad Andy" ad knew we had to look at other options.

(06-13-2023, 08:55 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I think he had Zac's support initially, until Zac found out for himself about "Bad Andy" ad knew we had to look at other options.

Definitely and Joe won’t if he’s dumped but for this season he does.

With how much we line up in the gun, how many running backs would be successful? I seriously think that without being able to get that initial head of steam, our running backs will never be more than average.

Just my .02

(06-13-2023, 09:12 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: With how much we line up in the gun, how many running backs would be successful? I seriously think that without being able to get that initial head of steam, our running backs will never be more than average.

Just my .02

Joe has run out of the shotgun all his life. Joe dances too much but a lot of times there’s nowhere to go. He needs to do better at taking what’s there.

(06-13-2023, 09:12 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: With how much we line up in the gun, how many running backs would be successful?  I seriously think that without being able to get that initial head of steam, our running backs will never be more than average.

Just my .02

Running backs run better from shotgun. No shade to you, but we have already had 10-20+ pages of this discussion at some point last season. Pretty much every single back in the league has a higher YPC from gun than under center. The "momentum" argument doesn't really hold any place in reality. Shotgun runs even do better in short yardage situations. IIRC, they do better in essentially every single category - yards per carry, short yardage conversion, explosive runs, you name it.

My guess is because of the personnel you often see in shotgun. It is usually at least 3+ receivers, so the defense has lighter personnel on the field and there is more space in the box. 

(06-13-2023, 10:40 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Running backs run better from shotgun. No shade to you, but we have already had 10-20+ pages of this discussion at some point last season. Pretty much every single back in the league has a higher YPC from gun than under center. The "momentum" argument doesn't really hold any place in reality. Shotgun runs even do better in short yardage situations. IIRC, they do better in essentially every single category - yards per carry, short yardage conversion, explosive runs, you name it.

My guess is because of the personnel you often see in shotgun. It is usually at least 3+ receivers, so the defense has lighter personnel on the field and there is more space in the box. 

And the numbers support this, even though I was surprised myself when I saw them last season. It is an unpredictable set, being in 
the Shotgun with 3 wide and a RB in the backfield with your QB. I would just like to see Burrow in the I formation a bit more and doing
some play action. We do not do this often but when we do it is highly effective when I saw the numbers on this as well.

Could be wrong though, you always got the numbers KG on all this stuff. Would be interested in how much Burrow lines up under Center.

It isn't often, pretty sure.

(06-13-2023, 01:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: And the numbers support this, even though I was surprised myself when I saw them last season. It is an unpredictable set, being in 
the Shotgun with 3 wide and a RB in the backfield with your QB. I would just like to see Burrow in the I formation a bit more and doing
some play action. We do not do this often but when we do it is highly effective when I saw the numbers on this as well.

Could be wrong though, you always got the numbers KG on all this stuff. Would be interested in how much Burrow lines up under Center.

It isn't often, pretty sure.

For all us guys that are 2 days older than dirt,   The old school I formation, wing tee, full house, wishbone and so on is how we grew up learning/playing football. Then we got ruined with Boomer and his   play action fake ability. And I miss it, a lot.

IIRC somebody posted stats towards the end of last season that our play action fakes were fairly effective. And I must admit I'd like to see Joe under center a touch more. But if he prefers shotgun and we're winning. I'll sit and smile and shut my dirty mouth.

I just wish Mixon could learn he's not a dancer and hit the hole and go.

(06-13-2023, 01:22 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: For all us guys that are 2 days older than dirt,   The old school I formation, wing tee, full house, wishbone and so on is how we grew up learning/playing football. Then we got ruined with Boomer and his   play action fake ability. And I miss it, a lot.

IIRC somebody posted stats towards the end of last season that our play action fakes were fairly effective. And I must admit I'd like to see Joe under center a touch more. But if he prefers shotgun and we're winning. I'll sit and smile and shut my dirty mouth.

I just wish Mixon could learn he's not a dancer and hit the hole and go.

It was okay, nothing to write home about. Out of qualified QBs, Joe ranked 15th of 22 in passer rating on play-action. He also had the lowest percentage of play-action out of these QBs with 15% of dropbacks. So, they don't do it all that often, which has been a complaint of some in ZT's offense. Relatively little play-action/RPOs to create conflict. 

(06-13-2023, 01:22 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: For all us guys that are 2 days older than dirt,   The old school I formation, wing tee, full house, wishbone and so on is how we grew up learning/playing football. Then we got ruined with Boomer and his   play action fake ability. And I miss it, a lot.

IIRC somebody posted stats towards the end of last season that our play action fakes were fairly effective. And I must admit I'd like to see Joe under center a touch more. But if he prefers shotgun and we're winning. I'll sit and smile and shut my dirty mouth.

I just wish Mixon could learn he's not a dancer and hit the hole and go.

No doubt, it is what we all grew up with, even us teens in the 90's. The 2 RB's in the backfield that we used to run with Ickey and
Brooks was a really interesting formation I don't remember ever seeing other team's do. Sam Wyche and that Offense was highly 
creative, would like to see some other looks here and there than just the Shotgun.

But like you said, what Burrow likes, Burrow gets and I don't think he likes the Defense on his back during Play action coming out 
of the I formation. Think I heard this before, but also could be wrong. I also remember this being highly effective though when he 
did do it.

Nice having another RB in Chase Brown to see what he can do in this Offense. Hopefully he gets a lot of chances to show what he 
can do and he doesn't fumble those opportunities away. This was his only problem in college, too many fumbles, get this fixed and 
he is about as polished of a RB as you can get.

(06-13-2023, 01:30 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It was okay, nothing to write home about. Out of qualified QBs, Joe ranked 15th of 22 in passer rating on play-action. He also had the lowest percentage of play-action out of these QBs with 15% of dropbacks. So, they don't do it all that often, which has been a complaint of some in ZT's offense. Relatively little play-action/RPOs to create conflict. 

Okay, thanks. Would like to see Play-Action more often though to really judge. Also, I know you have shown that a good running 
game doesn't always equate to more effective Play-Action, but it sure would be nice to have that other threat that scares Defenses
a bit for once.

(06-13-2023, 01:30 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It was okay, nothing to write home about. Out of qualified QBs, Joe ranked 15th of 22 in passer rating on play-action. He also had the lowest percentage of play-action out of these QBs with 15% of dropbacks. So, they don't do it all that often, which has been a complaint of some in ZT's offense. Relatively little play-action/RPOs to create conflict. 

(06-13-2023, 01:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Okay, thanks. Would like to see Play-Action more often though to really judge. Also, I know you have shown that a good running 
game doesn't always equate to more effective Play-Action, but it sure would be nice to have that other threat that scares Defenses
a bit for once.

I don't know Goose if you're old enough to have watched Boomer and others back in the 80's? But there were plays (many of them) where Boomer and other QB's for that matter would run play action fakes and the entire stadium, the announcers, everybody watching on TV, hell often even the cameraman were following the RB knowing he had the ball!!

And there was the TE running 12 yards downfield as wide open as you can ever get in the NFL. But they were totally dedicated to that style of play.

My point is (not that I want them to do it now) I just wonder if they were a bit more dedicated to running it, if it wouldn't be more effective?

And I just wonder how good it really was back in the day? I mean for QB's that weren't as good as Boomer with running play action?

Cook>Mixon. Bengals should make it work. The end.

(06-13-2023, 02:06 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't know Goose if you're old enough to have watched Boomer and others back in the 80's? But there were plays (many of them) where Boomer and other QB's for that matter would run play action fakes and the entire stadium, the announcers, everybody watching on TV, hell often even the cameraman were following the RB knowing he had the ball!!

And there was the TE running 12 yards downfield as wide open as you can ever get in the NFL. But they were totally dedicated to that style of play.

My point is (not that I want them to do it now) I just wonder if they were a bit more dedicated to running it, if it wouldn't be more effective?

And I just wonder how good it really was back in the day? I mean for QB's that weren't as good as Boomer with running play action?

I just turned 30, so not old enough but I have found myself going back and watching a lot of 80's Bengals (I avoid the 90's like the plague LOL.)

Boomer had an incredible fake. It seemed revolutionary. He really would fake everyone out. As to dedicating to the run, I don't think it would really help in today's NFL. The game has evolved a lot and defenses have had to become more technical to keep up with not only evolving offenses, but rule changes to benefit offenses. I have some old NFL playbooks from the early 2000's, so I know concepts like run fits existed at that point, and I would assume they did in the 70's and 80's but I don't know how strict players were about following them. 

My point with bringing that up is that the concept of run fits is exactly why play-action works, regardless of whether a team runs a lot/a little/bad/good. Take this play for example. It is my absolute favorite play for this discussion because it demonstrates it so clearly. This is the 2011 Lions. They were an okay running team, nothing great. In the video, watch Lance Briggs. As Stafford hands the ball off, Briggs fills his gap and then vacates it because he sees the TE head to the flat. He thinks it is a play-action pass. However, it isn't. Best cuts it back and runs right where Briggs vacated and scores an 88 yard TD. 

That is the conflict these linebackers have and they always have to respect that threat if a RB is on the field. If they don't respect the run, any of these guys on the field can take it all the way if you aren't in your spot. There are numerous examples of this playing out, but you can look at the 2021 Bucs as a quick example. Brady posted the 4th best passer rating on play-action despite the fact the Bucs had the second least amount of rush attempts in the league, and they weren't particularly good when they did run (20th in YPC). Aaron Rodgers was second, despite the Packers having only the 18th most attempts and also tied for 20th in YPC. Hell, Taylor Heinicke was first and Washington didn't run the ball a lot or well, either. 

(06-13-2023, 02:06 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't know Goose if you're old enough to have watched Boomer and others back in the 80's? But there were plays (many of them) where Boomer and other QB's for that matter would run play action fakes and the entire stadium, the announcers, everybody watching on TV, hell often even the cameraman were following the RB knowing he had the ball!!

And there was the TE running 12 yards downfield as wide open as you can ever get in the NFL. But they were totally dedicated to that style of play.

My point is (not that I want them to do it now) I just wonder if they were a bit more dedicated to running it, if it wouldn't be more effective?

And I just wonder how good it really was back in the day? I mean for QB's that weren't as good as Boomer with running play action?

Boomer's play action was an art form.  The way he would hide it behind the hip, and you're right, everyone watching - including the broadcast - would be faked out.  

(06-12-2023, 07:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: As KillerGoose said, both Mixon and Perine had about the same percentage of Gap scheme runs and Zone runs, so not necessarily 
true. You could see who had the better vision, Mixon definitely is more explosive of the 2 RB's but that doesn't matter if his balance 
is so bad that he is tripping forward all the time.

BTW Chase Brown was a 5th round pick which helps your point, but where RB's are drafted now a days is deceiving. Grading all the
RB's in that Draft only Bijan Robinson had better balance and both were about the same in pass pro. Both have great vision. Truly 
think Chase Brown in the 5th was a major steal that late.

Not every wide zone run is the same, Im not sure of the expertise here on run schemes, but Mixon certainly seemed to run many more outside 1 to 2 runs which require more patience to determine which hole to take.  

(06-13-2023, 12:01 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Pay attention he did not have Zac’s support to stay. You said Andy had Zac and Mike Browns support like Joe. That’s false. He did not have Zac’s

It’s the preseason and Mixon has two years left on his contract. Which was the exact situation with Dalton during Zac’s first season as the Bengals’ head coach. I realize you have been a Bengals fan for about a day, but Zac never said anything during that preseason heading into 2019 to suggest Dalton didn’t have his support. Suggesting otherwise is you making up more BS which is par for the course with you.