(06-26-2023, 05:27 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: If the Bears take Mahomes instead of Trubisky, do you honestly think that we'd be having this conversation right now? I don't.

I think there's two distinct points in this answer...

1. Do I think Mahomes would be a multiple time Super Bowl winner? No, probably not.
2. Do I think Mahomes still would have turned out really, really good? Yes, absolutely.
   

So, yeah, I do think we would be having this conversation. Mahomes is a top flight QB and it isn't just because of Reid or his offensive line. He is genuinely just very good. 

This discussion reminds me of a hypothetical question they asked on Sirius NFL today. Going into 2023 would you take Herbert or Lawrence as your starting QB. I couldn't answer.

(06-26-2023, 06:21 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Chances are pretty obviously good that he would have helped them tremendously. His talent isn't questionable. 

His talent is unquestionable. How far he’d have taken the Bears is a guess. Certainty they’d be at minimum at the top in the NFC North. He was young and even more free wheeling in college but Tech didn’t do much. They all need talent around them. JMHO put Mahomes or Burrow on the Eagles and oh my.

(06-26-2023, 05:21 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah but Mahomes doesn't just have the rings, he has the numbers too. Kind of silly to try and say Joe is even as good, let along better, right now. If Joe had the numbers and Pat had the rings, sure. But that ain't the case yet. 

Yep. Mahomes had 50 TD’s and an MVP in his first full season. That’s just nuts. There’s no shame in Burrow being #2 to that.

God damn i can’t wait for us to make this a legit debate.

(06-26-2023, 07:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This discussion reminds me of a hypothetical question they asked on Sirius NFL today. Going into 2023 would you take Herbert or Lawrence as your starting QB. I couldn't answer.

I can honestly say i'd take Lawrence and it's mostly based on the playoff game last year. Herbert seems like the guy to put up numbers but when when it comes to crunch time, he just can't get it done. I was checking out some splits the other night. I just looked up Herbert and he's a 80s to low 90s rated passer in the 4th quarter, 4th quarter with the game +/- 7 pts and last 2 minutes of the half. Guys like Mahomes and Burrow are elite in those times. 

Lawrence won a natti in college and played possibly the worst half in playoff history before getting it together and pulling out the win in the 2nd half. Trevor's splits in those same scenarios are as bad to worse than Herbert, so i don't think he'll ever be a Mahomes/Burrow type either but he did perform in the playoffs at least.

(06-26-2023, 05:21 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah but Mahomes doesn't just have the rings, he has the numbers too. Kind of silly to try and say Joe is even as good, let along better, right now. If Joe had the numbers and Pat had the rings, sure. But that ain't the case yet. 

Very true Faulk, very true.

At this point, it really should just be a moment to be happy with the QB the team has and enjoy the ride.

I like Burrow and Im happy we have him but until he proves he can win a couple of Super Bowls, Mahomes is #1.

If Burrow needs a loaded team surrounded by Chase, Higgins, Boyd, a great offensive line and Lou Anarumo to bail the offense out, Burrow isnt on that level. What good NFL QB couldnt win with this Bengals team and the talent they have surrounding the QB on offense and with Anarumo shutting other offenses down on defense. Burrow needs to step it up

(06-27-2023, 12:59 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I like Burrow and Im happy we have him but until he proves he can win a couple of Super Bowls, Mahomes is #1.

If Burrow needs a loaded team surrounded by Chase, Higgins, Boyd, a great offensive line and Lou Anarumo to bail the offense out, Burrow isnt on that level. What good NFL QB couldnt win with this Bengals team and the talent they have surrounding the QB on offense and with Anarumo shutting other offenses down on defense. Burrow needs to step it up

He’s never even had a decent OL in the playoffs, let alone a great one.

(06-27-2023, 12:59 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I like Burrow and Im happy we have him but until he proves he can win a couple of Super Bowls, Mahomes is #1.

If Burrow needs a loaded team surrounded by Chase, Higgins, Boyd, a great offensive line and Lou Anarumo to bail the offense out, Burrow isnt on that level. What good NFL QB couldnt win with this Bengals team and the talent they have surrounding the QB on offense and with Anarumo shutting other offenses down on defense. Burrow needs to step it up

Mahomes has one of the best lines in the NFL and the defensive line was #2 in sacks. He’s also got arguably the best TE in the NFL. And did I forget Andy Reid? Let’s don’t act like he’s helpless. But yes Mahomes is number 1. But our OL is better this year. Let’s revisit.

(06-27-2023, 07:10 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He’s never even had a decent OL in the playoffs, let alone a great one.

Right  

An awful one is more like it. But don't let the facts get in the way.

That’s what makes this sport so great. I can’t think of another sport where individual greatness is tied to the team, including the coaching staff. Would Manning have had more postseason success than Brady if his wagon was hitched to Belichek, or Reid for that matter? We’ll never know…

For me, there is no debate. I love my QB and wouldn’t trade him for the world. We have a down-to-Earth, ultra intelligent, no nonsense and no drama QB who WILL win SBs. The Chiefs have a great QB as well, with an annoying wife and a soon-to-be registering-every-year younger brother. I’m happy we have Joe!

(06-27-2023, 12:59 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I like Burrow and Im happy we have him but until he proves he can win a couple of Super Bowls, Mahomes is #1.

If Burrow needs a loaded team surrounded by Chase, Higgins, Boyd, a great offensive line and Lou Anarumo to bail the offense out, Burrow isnt on that level.  What good NFL QB couldnt win with this Bengals team and the talent they have surrounding the QB on offense and with Anarumo shutting other offenses down on defense.  Burrow needs to step it up

Before anyone reads the below, I will say, have said, and will continue to say that Patrick Mahomes is a HOF QB and an absolute MONSTER player. He deserves his success.

However, Burrow isn't on WHAT level?

Who was Pat Mahomes in the Superbowl LV when he had a trash O line made up of a bunch of backups WITH a very good defense and big time weapons in their prime?

He got SMOKED 9-31. Not even competitive. Joe Burrow had THE BENGALS .5 seconds away from hitting a wide open go route to win the SB. In the exact same situation. Hell, Mahomes had to play in his opponents home stadium and so did Burrow in their SB losses.

Mahomes stat line that game: 

26-49 (53% completion)
270 Yards
0 TDs
2 INT

The Chiefs immediately went out - literally that 2021 offseason following the SB loss - and dumped a TON of cash & resources into their Oline by trading for OBJr & signing Joe Thuney, along with draft capital (2nd rd pick Creed Humphrey) because they know that dude needed more time to throw.... AND MAHOMES STILL FOLDED under the pressure from the Bengals D & clutch plays by Burrow when it mattered most in the AFCCG.

- To see Joe Burrow do what he's been doing with THAT Oline, THAT young coaching staff, THAT young roster, for THAT organization, after having THAT injury, and THOSE offseason problems (COVID, REHAB, APENDIX/Intestine removal) says to me that the situation DOESN'T matter. Joe Burrow is going to be there up until the end and his team has a great chance to win. THAT is why he's the better QB, IMO.

(06-26-2023, 06:24 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think there's two distinct points in this answer...

1. Do I think Mahomes would be a multiple time Super Bowl winner? No, probably not.
2. Do I think Mahomes still would have turned out really, really good? Yes, absolutely.
   

So, yeah, I do think we would be having this conversation. Mahomes is a top flight QB and it isn't just because of Reid or his offensive line. He is genuinely just very good. 

Really hard to compare the situations.

stafford was a really good QB in Detroit but it wasn’t until LA until we had a conversation. If stafford goes to any other team but the lions he may be a multi SB winner.

(06-26-2023, 10:37 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I can honestly say i'd take Lawrence and it's mostly based on the playoff game last year. Herbert seems like the guy to put up numbers but when when it comes to crunch time, he just can't get it done. I was checking out some splits the other night. I just looked up Herbert and he's a 80s to low 90s rated passer in the 4th quarter, 4th quarter with the game +/- 7 pts and last 2 minutes of the half. Guys like Mahomes and Burrow are elite in those times. 

Lawrence won a natti in college and played possibly the worst half in playoff history before getting it together and pulling out the win in the 2nd half. Trevor's splits in those same scenarios are as bad to worse than Herbert, so i don't think he'll ever be a Mahomes/Burrow type either but he did perform in the playoffs at least.

Yeah, I would take Lawrence over Herbert from what we saw last year. Clutch play, that is where it matters the most and we saw some 
of that from Lawrence last year and in the Playoff game against the Chiefs. They nearly beat them, it was a close game, almost as close 
as ours in the AFCC.

(06-27-2023, 07:10 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He’s never even had a decent OL in the playoffs, let alone a great one.

(06-27-2023, 09:26 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Right  

An awful one is more like it. But don't let the facts get in the way.

(06-27-2023, 09:59 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Before anyone reads the below, I will say, have said, and will continue to say that Patrick Mahomes is a HOF QB and an absolute MONSTER player. He deserves his success.

However, Burrow isn't on WHAT level?

Who was Pat Mahomes in the Superbowl LV when he had a trash O line made up of a bunch of backups WITH a very good defense and big time weapons in their prime?

He got SMOKED 9-31. Not even competitive. Joe Burrow had THE BENGALS .5 seconds away from hitting a wide open go route to win the SB. In the exact same situation. Hell, Mahomes had to play in his opponents home stadium and so did Burrow in their SB losses.

Mahomes stat line that game: 

26-49 (53% completion)
270 Yards
0 TDs
2 INT

The Chiefs immediately went out - literally that 2021 offseason following the SB loss - and dumped a TON of cash & resources into their Oline by trading for OBJr & signing Joe Thuney, along with draft capital (2nd rd pick Creed Humphrey) because they know that dude needed more time to throw.... AND MAHOMES STILL FOLDED under the pressure from the Bengals D & clutch plays by Burrow when it mattered most in the AFCCG.

- To see Joe Burrow do what he's been doing with THAT Oline, THAT young coaching staff, THAT young roster, for THAT organization, after having THAT injury, and THOSE offseason problems (COVID, REHAB, APENDIX/Intestine removal) says to me that the situation DOESN'T matter. Joe Burrow is going to be there up until the end and his team has a great chance to win. THAT is why he's the better QB, IMO.

All true, I don't know what 007 was saying there. Burrow has played about as well as a QB can the last couple of years in clutch 
situations with terrible OL's in front of him. Mahomes is 1-3 against us as of late with a much better OL in front of him and we 
nearly beat them again in the AFC Championship if not for some bad calls and breaks not going our way.

Cannot wait to see what Burrow and this Offense can do with a good OL. We haven't seen it yet. This year we might, we actually
have depth at OT for once and a solid IOL that has gelled together.

I used to troll other teams' fan base forums and trash talk them until they were blind. That became boring.

The rest of these debates, who cares?

There isn't another QB in the NFL than I'd rather have than Joe Burrow....PERIOD. Not Mahomes, not Herbert, not Rodgers, NO ONE.

I'm serious!!!!

(06-27-2023, 02:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: All true, I don't know what 007 was saying there...

My point is if you give Burrow this great offensive line people now say we have and if you have Chase and Tee and Boyd then you add Charlie Jones and you have Lou Anarumo as a great defensive coordinator, there is absolutely no reason Burrow shouldnt be able to win a Super Bowl.  None.  Brady didnt require that amount of talent around him to win a Super Bowl.  Mahomes didnt require that amount of talent surrounding him to win a Super Bowl

If you put Patrick Mahomes on this team surrounded by all this talent, do you not think he couldnt win a Super Bowl with all the weapons Burrow has? And now Burrow has Mahomes LT.  All the top QBs could.   Mahomes won the Super Bowl last year with Travis Kelce as his one big receiving threat.  He didnt have threats like Chase or Higgins.  Even in the Super Bowl against Tampa Bay where he had to run for his life Mahomes was still making plays.  He threw many passes including touchdowns that his receivers just dropped.   This Bengals offense needs to do better than the 17 points they scored against the Ravens and 20 they scored against K.C. in the playoffs.

Until Joe can win a SB or two, Mahomes is going on the top of the QB mountain. No shame in being behind Mahomes