The team is now looking less fluke and more legit. They are racking up wins. They also have a very real roster crunch coming up soon. Votto is en route, CES is banging down the door.

Meanwhile, the Reds have terrific lineup. The staff, however is Greene and Abbott and hope shit goes really well.

Teams don't pick their year. It picks them. With that in mind, I feel like another starter (at least) is needed if this team is going to make a real postseason run.

Would you give up a CES for a Shane Beiber? Marte?

They have a lot of prospect capital. Would you give a meaningful bit of it up for a top-of-rotation hammer that can get it done in the fall? Would you rather let the season play out as is with hope of the second coming of the Big Red Machine being a reality when all of the young talent comes to Cincinnati?

It's a tough call. if Marte and CES, even Arroyo can hit the majors running as McLain and EDLC have, this team would be built like a brick shithouse until 2030.

IDK what to think.

I think we should hold on to our top prospects until the offseason. We would pay more in prospects with a deadline trade than we would an offseason trade, in my opinion. Now, if a trade came up for a decent vet starting pitcher, I would try and offload Senzel packaged with a couple mid tier prospects.

Now, if this were the offseason and the rookies playing now stayed on their “arrow up” trajectory? I would certainly look to trade one of our top infield prospects for a young, affordable (or controllable) starting pitcher for 2024 and beyond.

MLB has been and always will be about pitching. And you have to find a way to strike a balance between offense and pitching. The Reds, as we speak, just don't have the pitching staff, especially starters, to be a true contender in the long run.

In other words you can't have a world, high dollar players, at every position on the field. And right now we've got several that sure look like they'll be upper level position players. So they'll have to eventually strike a balance somewhere.

A few weeks ago there was talk of trading India. I'm against that. He's quickly developing into a team leader. He's tied for the team lead in HR's 9 and RBI's 38. Leads the team in SB's 12 and is batting .272 and in today's MLB that's like .325 in the 70's and 80's. And he's tied for 4th in all of MLB in runs scored 54. Yes he's not the world's best on defense at 2B be he's not so bad that he hurts us that much.

They're probably going to have to end up giving up one of the hot rods to get a real upper tier starter though. I've heard talk that's why they're keeping CES in the minors, trade bait.

I wouldn't mind at all seeing Senzel, Stephenson, Barrero, Newman, and all the bench players going. BUT, how much can you really get for those guys? Possibly they can find somebody who think they can revive Senzel or Barrero's careers and package them with CES and land somebody good at starter.

But I'm not so sure they're going to roll the dice this year? Probably much depends on where we are a month from now.

As long as the Reds are in contention for the division or wild card they should consider a trade for a starting pitcher. I wish we could trade Votto. lol I suspect they will trade Friedl or Fraley for a pitcher along with some prospects. Keep the young guys.

(06-17-2023, 09:58 PM)samhain Wrote: The team is now looking less fluke and more legit.  They are racking up wins.  They also have a very real roster crunch coming up soon.  Votto is en route, CES is banging down the door.  

Meanwhile, the Reds have terrific lineup.  The staff, however is Greene and Abbott and hope shit goes really well.  

Teams don't pick their year.  It picks them.  With that in mind, I feel like another starter (at least) is needed if this team is going to make a real postseason run.  

Would you give up a CES for a Shane Beiber?  Marte?

They have a lot of prospect capital.  Would you give a meaningful bit of it up for a top-of-rotation hammer that can get it done in the fall?  Would you rather let the season play out as is with hope of the second coming of the Big Red Machine being a reality when all of the young talent comes to Cincinnati?

It's a tough call.  if Marte and CES, even Arroyo can hit the majors running as McLain and EDLC have, this team would be built like a brick shithouse until 2030.  

IDK what to think.

I would be willing to trade the young chips that are more than 2 years away. Cam Collier, Sal Stewart, Victor Acosta, Hector Rodriguez, Alfredo Duno and Edwin Arroyo. Even Chase Petty.

Not many of them are high profile pieces yet, but Hector Rodriguez is currently hitting .305/.357/.563/.920 in A ball at just 19 years old (230 PAs) and was recently given the Low A minor league player of the month award for May. 

Edwin Arroyo and Cam Collier are top 100 prospects (top 50 in some areas) and Petty is rising up the lists as well with a 1.50 ERA in 6 starts with 26 SOs and only 5 BBs surrendered in high A ball at just 20 years old. 

The others (Acosta, Duno, Stewart) are still just potential but someone may be enticed by their tools to want them as a secondary piece of a trade if we were to go after some starting pitching at the deadline.

I would not be willing to give up CES at this point. CES is too close to the majors and looks like a legitimate power hitting prospect. He honestly should be on the big league team right now, but he's being blocked by a few players that may not be here past this season (Myers, Votto, Newman, Maile, Casali).

Marte is one that I'd be willing to part with, but only if we get a legitimate quality starting pitcher with at least 1 additional year of control in exchange. 

Marte + Acosta + Aguilar/Richardson for Shane Bieber would be a trade I'd consider, but only if we're confident we could re-sign Bieber to a long term contract, as next year will be the last season of arbitration for him.

I have a feeling the Guardians will want two premium prospects for Bieber though, unfortunately.

The cost of trading for veterans is so often so expensive, I'd be more interested in just renting an arm for one of the lower tier prospects just to have someone who could fill innings and get Weaver out of the ***** rotation haha.

A guy I follow on Twitter has this suggestion

It’s not sexy but Paul Blackburn makes a ton of sense.

Good GB rate for his career, 2.5 years team control.

Just don’t know what the price would be. If they value him as 2022 All-Star, then no, but as an older breakout starter, yes, go for it. #Reds https://t.co/Ee4W1iHx4x

— Bryce Spalding (@bryce_spalding) June 17, 2023

It depends on what Oakland wants for him, but he has control, he's fairly young and he has performed better as his career has gone on. He won't be an ace, but he'd be an improvement over Weaver, I think :)

(06-19-2023, 11:19 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I would be willing to trade the young chips that are more than 2 years away. Cam Collier, Sal Stewart, Victor Acosta, Hector Rodriguez, Alfredo Duno and Edwin Arroyo. Even Chase Petty.

Not many of them are high profile pieces yet, but Hector Rodriguez is currently hitting .305/.357/.563/.920 in A ball at just 19 years old (230 PAs) and was recently given the Low A minor league player of the month award for May. 

Edwin Arroyo and Cam Collier are top 100 prospects (top 50 in some areas) and Petty is rising up the lists as well with a 1.50 ERA in 6 starts with 26 SOs and only 5 BBs surrendered in high A ball at just 20 years old. 

The others (Acosta, Duno, Stewart) are still just potential but someone may be enticed by their tools to want them as a secondary piece of a trade if we were to go after some starting pitching at the deadline.

I would not be willing to give up CES at this point. CES is too close to the majors and looks like a legitimate power hitting prospect. He honestly should be on the big league team right now, but he's being blocked by a few players that may not be here past this season (Myers, Votto, Newman, Maile, Casali).

Marte is one that I'd be willing to part with, but only if we get a legitimate quality starting pitcher with at least 1 additional year of control in exchange. 

Marte + Acosta + Aguilar/Richardson for Shane Bieber would be a trade I'd consider, but only if we're confident we could re-sign Bieber to a long term contract, as next year will be the last season of arbitration for him.

I have a feeling the Guardians will want two premium prospects for Bieber though, unfortunately.

The cost of trading for veterans is so often so expensive, I'd be more interested in just renting an arm for one of the lower tier prospects just to have someone who could fill innings and get Weaver out of the ***** rotation haha.

If I'm selling out for an ace, which I don't think they will do, I'm going all in for Cease.  I'm not sure that's the way to go, because historically that kind of player is insanely expensive in prospect capital.  

Castillo netted us Marte and Arroyo, two top 100 prospects, and he only had a year and a half of control left.  Cease has 3, I think, so you'd be forking over your point of flesh.  Bieber would be a similar price tag.  

If I'm the Reds, I'm going for slightly less expensive game.  Maybe JP Sears from Oakland.  I'd also look in on middling veterans with fewer years of control.  

Realistically, unless the rebuild is done, and I don't think it is, this is a band-aid scenario.  See what you can get for lesser guys like Hopkins, Acosta, etc.  I wouldn't oppose floating Stephenson out there.  If I'm trading a major prospect, it's probably Arroyo, as he may well be blocked by the time he's MLB ready.  

The lineup is rounding out well.  India, Steer, Friedl, McLain, and Elly are entrenched for the long term IMO.  I'd hate to sell out our chance to add a Marte and a CES to that group for the next 4-5 years in exchange for a few years of ace pitching.  They can get more starters in the offseason when the payroll drops again.  

Get a Lance Lynn and a Corey Kluber, hope the offense can float the difference, thank yourself next year when the second wave of young talent gets to Cincinnati.  I'd also see what KC would want for Aroldis, btw.  It couldn't be a lot. Get a 8th and 9th inning lock down crew of receivers to take pressure off of the staff.

MLB ready players I can part with to help increase the bid for a choice starter or two . . . quite a few outfielders
Benson
India - sorry Bengalfan74, see CES below - he's running out of a position to play and he's stated that he thinks that his time in Cincy is limited.
Fairchild - His play grew on me, but he's easily replaceable.
Hopkins
Senzel - He's had his chance to claim a spot and keep it.
Fraley - Outside of Friedl, all outfielders are in danger of losing at bats to Steer or India.
Newman - To be honest? I kind of like him more than India at this point. More places on the field to put him.

Minor League prospects that are NOT on the list . . .
Phillips - their faith in him is the key if this team is to trade for a rental starter or if they're going to try to add a new bullet in the chamber going forward.
CES - I honestly think that he would be in Cincinnati if the Reds didn't have this India/Senzel situation. That's why I put India on the trade list.
Marte
Petty - I assume that with the glut of young talent coming up, pitching will be a draft priority . . . Then why get rid of someone that's already ahead of most pitchers that are about to be drafted? A little confused as to why he's still being pulled after four shutout innings. Seven starts, 28 innings in his third professional season.

Here's a pretty cool website that I had never seen before today
https://www.redsminorleagues.com/

(06-28-2023, 09:04 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: MLB ready players I can part with to help increase the bid for a choice starter or two . . . quite a few outfielders
Benson
India - sorry Bengalfan74, see CES below - he's running out of a position to play and he's stated that he thinks that his time in Cincy is limited.
Fairchild - His play grew on me, but he's easily replaceable.
Hopkins
Senzel - He's had his chance to claim a spot and keep it.
Fraley - Outside of Friedl, all outfielders are in danger of losing at bats to Steer or India.
Newman - To be honest? I kind of like him more than India at this point. More places on the field to put him.

Minor League prospects that are NOT on the list . . .
Phillips - their faith in him is the key if this team is to trade for a rental starter or if they're going to try to add a new bullet in the chamber going forward.
CES - I honestly think that he would be in Cincinnati if the Reds didn't have this India/Senzel situation. That's why I put India on the trade list.
Marte
Petty - I assume that with the glut of young talent coming up, pitching will be a draft priority . . . Then why get rid of someone that's already ahead of most pitchers that are about to be drafted? A little confused as to why he's still being pulled after four shutout innings. Seven starts, 28 innings in his third professional season.

Here's a pretty cool website that I had never seen before today
https://www.redsminorleagues.com/

I'm warming up more and more to trading India to get some better starters. Senzel for sure yes, Newman as well. Benson I wouldn't be heartbroken over. He's really been coming on strong though.

We've got CES and Marte in AAA and both are close to being ready for the big show.

I'm trying hard to temper my expectations this season. Trying to understand and accept this is a building season....finally after like a dozen rebuilds already. But damn it's hard to watch our starting pitching being down to Abbott and Ashcrat who's struggling bad. And two guys who'd struggle to be #5's on most teams.

2010 and 2012 are our last decent seasons. And we got thrown out of playoffs quick both years. 1990 was a long time ago and I'm so very ready for the Reds to be relevant again. And that means pitching. It's just that simple.

We're going to have to give up something, something we don't want to, to get it. 

(06-17-2023, 09:58 PM)samhain Wrote: The team is now looking less fluke and more legit.  They are racking up wins.  They also have a very real roster crunch coming up soon.  Votto is en route, CES is banging down the door.  

Meanwhile, the Reds have terrific lineup.  The staff, however is Greene and Abbott and hope shit goes really well.  

Teams don't pick their year.  It picks them.  With that in mind, I feel like another starter (at least) is needed if this team is going to make a real postseason run.  

Would you give up a CES for a Shane Beiber?  Marte?

They have a lot of prospect capital.  Would you give a meaningful bit of it up for a top-of-rotation hammer that can get it done in the fall?  Would you rather let the season play out as is with hope of the second coming of the Big Red Machine being a reality when all of the young talent comes to Cincinnati?

It's a tough call.  if Marte and CES, even Arroyo can hit the majors running as McLain and EDLC have, this team would be built like a brick shithouse until 2030.  

IDK what to think.

Reds have a lot of talent on the infield now. 

India, McLain, De La Cruz, Steer.

You got CES for a corner infield spot and Noelvi Marte for middle infield spot.
Arroyo middle infield too, but he's further out.

De La Cruz, McClain, and Steer will be here for quite a few years, and India should/could be here through 2026 while having arbitration years.
So I think it might be difficult finding opportunities for CES and especially Marte before 2027.
As such, I think it could be worthwhile trading one/both of them in order to get some pitching.

Saw today the Mets are considering trading Scherzer or Verlander. We should go after one of them. Maybe some cash and a few players.

(06-29-2023, 02:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Reds have a lot of talent on the infield now. 

India, McLain, De La Cruz, Steer.

You got CES for a corner infield spot and Noelvi Marte for middle infield spot.
Arroyo middle infield too, but he's further out.

De La Cruz, McClain, and Steer will be here for quite a few years, and India should/could be here through 2026 while having arbitration years.
So I think it might be difficult finding opportunities for CES and especially Marte before 2027.
As such, I think it could be worthwhile trading one/both of them in order to get some pitching.

Steer has been playing in LF and seems fine at it, making a few good plays out there. They did this to allow Votto to re-join the team but I think this was done long term to give CES 1B.

Similarly, and I know people are going to cringe at this, but I still think they could move EDLC to RF if they absolutely needed to make room for Marte on the infield.

EDLC has a cannon for an arm, is lightning quick in covering ground and is extraordinarily athletic. He seems to have a good feel for tracking balls in the air as well (he had one play where he tracked from SS all the way into the foul ground in the LF corner to make a play). He could become an impact RF.

The move wouldn't be unprecedented either, as the Padres recently did the exact same thing with their star SS, Fernando Tatis Jr. We saw him cut down EDLC from RF with his rocket arm over the weekend, as well as a slew of other impact plays.

And it's not like we have a bunch of outfielders knocking down the door to enter the MLB. It is one position group that our farm system is sorely lacking.

I know that, defensively, RF is considered less important than SS, but I think McLain is our long term SS anyway. Marte is more suited to 3B than SS as well but he doesn't have the cannon or speed that EDLC does, so he would not transition to the outfield as well as EDLC.

The other, perhaps more obvious, option is to do something with India, move McLain to 2B, move Elly to SS and have Marte take over 3B with CES at 1B and Steer at LF.

In this scenario, does India become our full time DH? Could he scratch by at RF? If we moved India to RF, he'd have one of the weakest arms in the outfield in the majors (16th percentile, per statcast), so sacrifice flies would be very effective against us and we may be more susceptible to singles becoming doubles and doubles becoming triples.

Or, in this scenario, do we trade India? I'm not sure what you can get for him, but it'd be an option. The downside of that is obviously the fact that he's the team captain and trading him would risk ruining the chemistry in the dugout. But that's very hard to quantify...

I like the idea of moving Elly to the outfield because it doesn't require us to break up the team's core, but simply add to it with Marte and CES.
It also gives us a guy who could cut down sacrifice flies and stretching doubles.

A lineup of Friedl (CF), McLain (SS), India (2B), Elly (RF), Steer (LF), CES (1B), Marte (3B), Stephenson ©, Fraley/Benson/Senzel (DH and/or defensive replacements based on matchups) is an objectively incredible line up. 

(07-05-2023, 11:13 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I know that, defensively, RF is considered less important than SS, but I think McLain is our long term SS anyway. 

A lineup of Friedl (CF), McLain (SS), India (2B), Elly (RF), Steer (LF), CES (1B), Marte (3B), Stephenson ©, Fraley/Benson/Senzel (DH and/or defensive replacements based on matchups) is an objectively incredible line up.

If you put any stock into defensive metrics at all...
McLain has +2 defensive runs saved at SS (318.0 innings) and -1 DRS at 2B (56.0 innings).
DLC had -2 DRS at 3B (128.0 innings) at 3B and 0 DRS at SS (90.0 innings).

So I think you are right in that you almost have to stick with the plus glove at SS with McLain. That means giving DLC a shot at RF if you think Marte is going to be a plus glove at 3B, or just keeping DLC at 3B and hoping for improvement with playtime if you think Marte is going to be an average or below average 3B glove. 

It is interesting that they are still playing Marte at 3B right now in the minors.


- - - - - - - 

Need to move India out of the #3 spot. Also I really hope Stephenson's bat wakes up, I had expectations for him.

I'm joining the camp to trade India and some prospects for a good starting pitcher. Teams will be ready to deal soon.

(07-07-2023, 01:59 AM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I'm joining the camp to trade India and some prospects for a good starting pitcher. Teams will be ready to deal soon.

I wouldn't move him.  I would move him up or down the lineup.  He looks a little tired and he'll probably a better hitter when he plays within himself instead of trying to crank homers every at bat.