(08-07-2023, 04:24 PM)Au165 Wrote: I'd lean towards 7 with Morgan being active on game days and others depending on injuries being inactive. Morgan is a special teams guy that will get the nod if our normal receivers are all healthy. The question becomes who at other positions could usurp Morgan's special teams reps to make him expendable. 

Back in the good ole Josh Malone/Damion Willis/Player X (can't remember the name) days, there was a big ST discussion. I think that argument gets way more play than it deserves. The ST guy in question made something like a whopping 7 tackles on ST the previous year. There's plenty of guys on the roster to fill those positions and do it as adequately as the guy before them. 

I don't really remember the last time the Bengals had a true 'ST demon'. 

(08-07-2023, 05:35 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Back in the good ole Josh Malone/Damion Willis/Player X (can't remember the name) days, there was a big ST discussion. I think that argument gets way more play than it deserves. The ST guy in question made something like a whopping 7 tackles on ST the previous year. There's plenty of guys on the roster to fill those positions and do it as adequately as the guy before them. 

I don't really remember the last time the Bengals had a true 'ST demon'. 

Coverage teams are about what 80 snaps a season? 

PS: Probably the last really good special teams player in Cincy was Cedric Peerman.

The WR room will be: Chase, Higgins, Boyd, C. Jones (PR/slot), Irwin, & Iosivas.

Irwin has had a great camp and is an outside guy. Jones can olay outside, but he takes Taylor's spot as backup slot/PR. Iosivas has the best non-Chase speed on the team, he makes it.

If we carry 7 (doubtful), then Morgan or Taylor would be that guy. We will keep at least 2 on the PS.

I'm not sure why carrying 7 is so doubtful. I've always felt like with their love for empty, 7 receivers should be the standard to keep for this offense. Especially when we really don't have an established 4th receiver outside of a career practice squad player.

(08-07-2023, 05:40 PM)Synric Wrote: Coverage teams are about what 80 snaps a season? 

And their importance is overblown in most instances. If you have terrible coverage teams, i can see the need for fixing that but the Bengals are usually good in that regard. 

I'm just saying that playing ST wouldn't be a priority for me when deciding roster spots. It would be more, what does player X bring to the offense or defense first. There's always plenty of guys to play teams. Also, Morgan had the 3rd most tackles on ST last year, behind ADG and Marcus Bailey.

Sorry, i don't know what it is about teams but whenever the discussion comes up it gets me beating the drum. I can't seem to resist. 

(08-07-2023, 05:43 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'm not sure why carrying 7 is so doubtful. I've always felt like with their love for empty, 7 receivers should be the standard to keep for this offense. Especially when we really don't have an established 4th receiver outside of a career practice squad player.

It's doubtful because they haven't done it yet and i don't see either guy, TT or Morgan, being indespensible.

(08-07-2023, 05:40 PM)Synric Wrote: Coverage teams are about what 80 snaps a season? 

PS: Probably the last really good special teams player in Cincy was Cedric Peerman.

Yet Matthew Slater has stayed in the league only playing those snaps for a decade. There is value in special teams, now with the kick off rules will it change? Maybe. I think Simmons still has say. I believe you actually mentioned before that Battles appeal for special teams was part of why he was taken (which I rejected) so this argument is kind of counter intuiative to your other stance.

I don't think we did it because we haven't really drafted wideouts since Chase. They really didn't even have 7 to consider until this camp. Even last offseason the big "complaint" on this board was we didn't have any receivers after the big 3. So getting to 7 was stretching it when we had other spots we could use that spot for.

(08-07-2023, 05:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: Yet Matthew Slater has stayed in the league only playing those snaps for a decade. There is value in special teams, now with the kick off rules will it change? Maybe. I think Simmons still has say. I believe you actually mentioned before that Battles appeal for special teams was part of why he was taken (which I rejected) so this argument is kind of counter intuiative to your other stance.

There is certainly value for some guys. Syn mentioned Peerman. He was a good one and brought some versatility. Used on fake punts, could carry the ball. He certainly brought more to the team than Morgan does now. 

Mike Thomas is another one that's currently pretty valuable, even though he doesn't get a lot of D snaps. There is value, when you have the right guy(s). I just don't see Morgan as one of those guys.

(08-07-2023, 05:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: There is certainly value for some guys. Syn mentioned Peerman. He was a good one and brought some versatility. Used on fake punts, could carry the ball. He certainly brought more to the team than Morgan does now. 

Mike Thomas is another one that's currently pretty valuable, even though he doesn't get a lot of D snaps. There is value, when you have the right guy(s). I just don't see Morgan as one of those guys.

I think MT and Morgan are competing for a spot. If they like the depth at the backend of the safety room better than WR I think we keep one and that’s what determines where that ST player comes from.

(08-07-2023, 05:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: Yet Matthew Slater has stayed in the league only playing those snaps for a decade. There is value in special teams, now with the kick off rules will it change? Maybe. I think Simmons still has say. I believe you actually mentioned before that Battles appeal for special teams was part of why he was taken (which I rejected) so this argument is kind of counter intuiative to your other stance.

My comment about Jordan Battle was not regulating him to special teams but linking him with Vincent Rey who was a great special teams player and a solid NFL backup Linebacker which the latter is the important part since every other year rules continue to change to make special teams less and less important.

(08-07-2023, 05:53 PM)jj22 Wrote: I don't think we did it because we haven't really drafted wideouts since Chase. They really didn't even have 7 to consider until this camp. Even last offseason the big "complaint" on this board was we didn't have any receivers after the big 3. So getting to 7 was stretching it when we had other spots we could use that spot for.

That will probably still be the thing. A 7th WR is more a luxury than a necessity for this team. The depth there looks good. 

If they don't need it anywhere else, WR, RB and TE all seem to be candidates to carry extra this year but RB and TE might be more of a need.

(08-07-2023, 05:57 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think MT and Morgan are competing for a spot. If they like the depth at the backend of the safety room better than WR I think we keep one and that’s what determines where that ST player comes from.

I agree.

(08-07-2023, 05:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: I agree with you, but Coaches seem to appreciate his blocking when he is in as a receiver. I've heard or read that he is our "best blocking receiver" before I believe. 

Of course, if he's in the game, it is a dead giveaway it is a run or a screen. 

In terms of ST, his replacement does not have to be a WR, it could be a DB. Someone like Tycen Anderson or Ivey. 

(08-07-2023, 05:58 PM)Synric Wrote: My comment about Jordan Battle was not regulating him to special teams but linking him with Vincent Rey who was a great special teams player and a solid NFL backup Linebacker which the latter is the important part since every other year rules continue to change to make special teams less and less important.

FYI Mike Thomas played 289 ST snaps last season, which is more snap than Irwin played last season (287 offensive). So as we talk about the importance or utilization of players that’s a good way of looking at it.

I expect both draftees are making the team and both will get activated more than some will think. Lest we forget one of the issues we saw in the AFCCG was that Boyd got hurt and when he went out the Chiefs doubled Chase and Higgins and the offense struggled because Irwin was unable to fill Boyd's shoes in terms of making the defense pay. The Charlie Jones pick fairly screamed the team not wanting that issue to pop up again.

(08-07-2023, 04:52 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Ideally if Iosivas showed he could play special teams, Morgan could be cut.  The only thing Morgan has to offer is special teams.  He offers nothing as a WR which is a waste.  But, if you dont have anyone that can take his place, he uses up a roster spot.

I’m agreeing here.

(08-07-2023, 06:07 PM)Au165 Wrote: FYI Mike Thomas played 289 ST snaps last season, which is more snap than Irwin played last season (287 offensive). So as we talk about the importance or utilization of players that’s a good way of looking at it.

I would be that’s a battle between Darrin Simmons and Brian Callahan. That’ll be tough on Zachary Taylor I promise. Brian Callahan coached in Taylor’s QB camp over 15 years ago and Zac stays in his lane with Darrin to the nth degree.

I would think with the new kickoff rule (ball going out to the 25 on fair catches) and having a punter with more hangtime, that coverage teams are far less important than in the past and should be accorded less weight in deciding who makes the 53.

The Bengals were fortunate that last year Trenton Irwin wasn't picked up by another team from the practice squad as he ended up filling in admirably when starting WRs went down.

(08-07-2023, 05:35 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Back in the good ole Josh Malone/Damion Willis/Player X (can't remember the name) days, there was a big ST discussion. I think that argument gets way more play than it deserves. The ST guy in question made something like a whopping 7 tackles on ST the previous year. There's plenty of guys on the roster to fill those positions and do it as adequately as the guy before them. 

I don't really remember the last time the Bengals had a true 'ST demon'. 

Pacman was pretty sick but we'd only put him back there when he hadn't been on the field too much on defense.

Marvin didn't think he'd have enough energy for one punt return?

It never made any sense to me.