I'm going to look up if this is discussed anywhere online after I post this, but could the D-Day invasions have been done differently that might have saved ten of thousands of lives?

I'm thinking of the landing vessels on the beach: they opened the front, making them easy targets for machine gun spray fire.

If they had opened from the back, wouldn't the soldiers have had the protection of the landing vessels and not be shot as they immediately opened from the front?

I realize that they could have still been shot when they ran out from around the back, but they wouldn't have been as cluttered together, and it's also more difficult to hit a moving target. I realize the machine guns didn't aim at soldiers individually, but it's still more difficult than hitting a stationary group.

Or would that have taken too much time? I can see the argument for taking too much time for the vessels that didn't make it to the beach and the soldiers were waste-deep in water, but I feel like a lot of soldiers could have been saved if they didn't open from the front, making them easy targets.

Is it not as simple as I'm thinking?

(09-07-2023, 03:34 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I'm going to look up if this is discussed anywhere online after I post this, but could the D-Day invasions have been done differently that might have saved ten of thousands of lives?

I'm thinking of the landing vessels on the beach: they opened the front, making them easy targets for machine gun spray fire.

If they had opened from the back, wouldn't the soldiers have had the protection of the landing vessels and not be shot as they immediately opened from the front?

I realize that they could have still been shot when they ran out from around the back, but they wouldn't have been as cluttered together, and it's also more difficult to hit a moving target. I realize the machine guns didn't aim at soldiers individually, but it's still more difficult than hitting a stationary group.

Or would that have taken too much time? I can see the argument for taking too much time for the vessels that didn't make it to the beach and the soldiers were waste-deep in water, but I feel like a lot of soldiers could have been saved if they didn't open from the front, making them easy targets.

Is it not as simple as I'm thinking?

It's a question of water depth and ease of exit, your next to last paragraph nails it. The objective was to unload the troops as quickly as possible onto the beach. If it opened from the back or the side, they would dropping into significantly deeper water, making their trek to the beach much slower. They were loaded up with full equipment, and would now be soaking wet, trying to rush to the beach and avoid fire while doing so. They would have been gunned down in the water instead, or they would have perhaps drowned if they fell. I do think they knew that the strategy would result in many deaths, but they wanted to overwhelm the beach with soldiers and a front door was the best option to do so. 

(09-07-2023, 03:42 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It's a question of water depth and ease of exit, your next to last paragraph nails it. The objective was to unload the troops as quickly as possible onto the beach. If it opened from the back or the side, they would dropping into significantly deeper water, making their trek to the beach much slower. They were loaded up with full equipment, and would now be soaking wet, trying to rush to the beach and avoid fire while doing so. They would have been gunned down in the water instead, or they would have perhaps drowned if they fell. I do think they knew that the strategy would result in many deaths, but they wanted to overwhelm the beach with soldiers and a front door was the best option to do so. 

But what percentage of troops made it to the beach or in shallow enough water where it wouldn't have been as big of a problem? Risk vs reward.

I did a quick internet search about how many vessels actually landed on the beach but couldn't find a simple answer.

I did see where they said an early morning landing or even a night landing would have been much better because of the difficulties seeing.

I'm going to get a new phone but thanks for the insight and keep them coming! I forgot how much I loved this type of thing!

I'll be back in (hopefully) in a bit!

(09-07-2023, 03:59 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: But what percentage of troops made it to the beach or in shallow enough water where it wouldn't have been as big of a problem? Risk vs reward.

I did a quick internet search about how many vessels actually landed on the beach but couldn't find a simple answer.

I did see where they said an early morning landing or even a night landing would have been much better because of the difficulties seeing.

I'm going to get a new phone but thanks for the insight and keep them coming! I forgot how much I loved this type of thing!

I'll be back in (hopefully) in a bit!

Well, in total the Allies used roughly 5,000 landing vessels to transport 150k-160k troops to France. The total casualties for all included was around 10,300, with ~4k of those being deaths, which was quite impressive. The Allies had long been involved in a deception plot to make the Nazis believe that they were going to invade in a different area of France. Due to this, the Nazi forces were re-positioned to that particular area and Normandy was "lightly defended". It is hard to say how many vessels landed on the beach, but this link describes it as "few". There were strong currents and quite a bit of confusion when the landing commenced. The first photo in this article gives an idea of what many of the soldiers were tasked with once the bay doors dropped on their boats. 

The landings started at 6:30 AM. Daylight was required because of the topography of the beaches and the obstacles the Germans had built into the coastline. They also needed daylight for the bombardments which started about an hour before the landings could see what they were shooting at.
They timed the landings between the tides so there was enough depth for the landing crafts but not too much. They had a window of June 5, 6, or 7 that had the combined conditions of the proper moon phase and tide phase at the same time. They lost the 5th due to the weather. The 6th had a window that was going to close before the 7th so the 6th it was. There was too much of a risk that the Germans would find out the invasion plans if they postponed until July.

There were close to 7000 naval vessels used in the invasion. Of that, about 4100 were landing craft. The LCs couldn't go all the way to the beach because they got caught up in strong currents, rough seas, and the barriers placed in the sea by the Germans. As a result, hundreds of men drowned because the the current, the depth of water they stepped out into, and the weight of their packs/equipment. LCs were basically tin cans. They didn't have a lot of power and really offered only minimal protection. They unload to the front because it's faster and closer to the objective to unload that way. Unloading from the rear would place them in deeper water and force them to change directions in the current (with heavy packs)

(09-07-2023, 04:31 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Well, in total the Allies used roughly 5,000 landing vessels to transport 150k-160k troops to France. The total casualties for all included was around 10,300, with ~4k of those being deaths, which was quite impressive. The Allies had long been involved in a deception plot to make the Nazis believe that they were going to invade in a different area of France. Due to this, the Nazi forces were re-positioned to that particular area and Normandy was "lightly defended". It is hard to say how many vessels landed on the beach, but this link describes it as "few". There were strong currents and quite a bit of confusion when the landing commenced. The first photo in this article gives an idea of what many of the soldiers were tasked with once the bay doors dropped on their boats. 

This part here impresses me. We are talking 1944:

Quote:Early in the war, a team of Polish and British experts — led by Alan Turing, whose life and work are depicted in the Oscar-winning movie "The Imitation Game" — cracked that code through what became the foundation for the modern computer.

Gonna have to watch that movie.

(09-07-2023, 04:54 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: This part here impresses me. We are talking 1944:

Gonna have to watch that movie.

Turing was an absolute genius, but his post-war life is quite sad. I have never seen the movie, I will have to watch it as well. 

(09-07-2023, 05:06 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Turing was an absolute genius, but his post-war life is quite sad. I have never seen the movie, I will have to watch it as well. 

Thanks for not spoiling it for me.

(09-07-2023, 05:28 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Thanks for not spoiling it for me.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm, but I'm sorry if I did. I didn't even think about not divulging any information about him or his life. Mental lapse. 

(09-07-2023, 05:35 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I'm not sure if this is sarcasm, but I'm sorry if I did. I didn't even think about not divulging any information about him or his life. Mental lapse. 

No it's not. You mentioned his life was kind of sad. So I was appreciative for not going into detail.

(09-07-2023, 04:31 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Well, in total the Allies used roughly 5,000 landing vessels to transport 150k-160k troops to France. The total casualties for all included was around 10,300, with ~4k of those being deaths, which was quite impressive. The Allies had long been involved in a deception plot to make the Nazis believe that they were going to invade in a different area of France. Due to this, the Nazi forces were re-positioned to that particular area and Normandy was "lightly defended". It is hard to say how many vessels landed on the beach, but this link describes it as "few". There were strong currents and quite a bit of confusion when the landing commenced. The first photo in this article gives an idea of what many of the soldiers were tasked with once the bay doors dropped on their boats. 

I didn't ever realize that the Canadians had accomplished anything ever in terms of the military, but they apparently they played a HUGE role in capturing one of the beaches (Juno, if I remember correctly).

How they broke the German code and kept them in the dark for so long is so damn impressive in itself.

I feel like all this history is getting lost in a generation where (most) kids only care about things like TikTok and Facebook. 

I was supposed to read two books for English class the summer before the wreck and write papers on them, which I just browsed them and threw together bullshit papers, but I read a few books on WW2 and other wars.

(09-07-2023, 04:54 PM)pally Wrote: The landings started at 6:30 AM.  Daylight was required because of the topography of the beaches and the obstacles the Germans had built into the coastline.  They also needed daylight for the bombardments which started about an hour before the landings could see what they were shooting at.
They timed the landings between the tides so there was enough depth for the landing crafts but not too much.  They had a window of June 5, 6, or 7 that had the combined conditions of the proper moon phase and tide phase at the same time.  They lost the 5th due to the weather.  The 6th had a window that was going to close before the 7th so the 6th it was.  There was too much of a risk that the Germans would find out the invasion plans if they postponed until July.

There were close to 7000 naval vessels used in the invasion.  Of that, about 4100 were landing craft.   The LCs couldn't go all the way to the beach because they got caught up in strong currents, rough seas, and the barriers placed in the sea by the Germans.  As a result, hundreds of men drowned because the the current, the depth of water they stepped out into, and the weight of their packs/equipment.  LCs were basically tin cans.  They didn't have a lot of power and really offered only minimal protection. They unload to the front because it's faster and closer to the objective to unload that way.  Unloading from the rear would place them in deeper water and force them to change directions in the current (with heavy packs)

So many things, like the tides, went wrong on D-Day that it's hard to figure out why it was successful.

I thought I saw somewhere where the moon would have been bright enough to carry out the invasions at night. I know it's not nearly as bright as the sun, but with all the explosions and things going on at the beaches, I wonder if that could have been bright enough.

A new piece of information I just found out is that Hitler went to bed late the night before and ordered his staff not to wake him up. When he finally woke up, he was excited that the invasion was happening because he thought there was no way it would succeed and figured it would crush the Allies armies and destroy their hope:

Quote:When the D-Day forces landed, Nazi leader Adolf Hitler was asleep. 

None of his generals dared order reinforcements without his permission, and no-one dared wake him.
Crucial hours were lost in the battle to hold Normandy. 
When Hitler did finally wake up, at around 10am, he was excited at news of the invasion - he thought Germany would easily defeat the Allies.

That's incredible!

Who knows if waking Hitler would have stopped the invasion, but Hitler was a pretty damn good military strategist, so who knows, because he could have also dispatched more troops, like the SS.

THANKS FOR THE INFO! 

This is incredible!

(09-07-2023, 04:54 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: This part here impresses me. We are talking 1944:

Gonna have to watch that movie.

I'm definitely going to have to watch that!

I gotta go blow kisses to cars but keep the responses coming!

(09-07-2023, 06:04 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I didn't ever realize that the Canadians had accomplished anything ever in terms of the military, but they apparently they played a HUGE role in capturing one of the beaches (Juno, if I remember correctly).

How they broke the German code and kept them in the dark for so long is so damn impressive in itself.

I feel like all this history is getting lost in a generation where (most) kids only care about things like TikTok and Facebook. 

I was supposed to read two books for English class the summer before the wreck and write papers on them, which I just browsed them and threw together bullshit papers, but I read a few books on WW2 and other wars.
So many things, like the tides, went wrong on D-Day that it's hard to figure out why it was successful.

I thought I saw somewhere where the moon would have been bright enough to carry out the invasions at night. I know it's not nearly as bright as the sun, but with all the explosions and things going on at the beaches, I wonder if that could have been bright enough.

A new piece of information I just found out is that Hitler went to bed late the night before and ordered his staff not to wake him up. When he finally woke up, he was excited that the invasion was happening because he thought there was no way it would succeed and figured it would crush the Allies armies and destroy their hope:

That's incredible!

Who knows if waking Hitler would have stopped the invasion, but Hitler was a pretty damn good military strategist, so who knows, because he could have also dispatched more troops, like the SS.

THANKS FOR THE INFO! 

This is incredible!


I'm definitely going to have to watch that!

I gotta go blow kisses to cars but keep the responses coming!

Dude, the Canadians were bad asses and they don't get talked about much. Cool stuff that you bring them up. Most of my WWII interest is around the atomic bombings, so I can speak at length about that. If you're interested in any books, I would recommend Prompt & Utter Destruction by J. Samuel Walker. I am sure there are some equally informative books about D-Day. All fascinating stuff. 

(09-07-2023, 04:54 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: This part here impresses me. We are talking 1944:

Gonna have to watch that movie.

From your true stories thread . . .

(09-01-2023, 01:50 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Togo
Hacksaw Ridge
Hidden Figures
The Imitation Game
Argo
Outlaw King
Black Book
The Finest Hours
The Big Sick
The Revenant
Dolphin Tale
The Rider
Eddie the Eagle
Glory Road
Champions

Here are some I've enjoyed.

Toot, toot.

I think Black Book is another good WWII movie. My two favorite are probably A Bridge Too Far and The Longest Day. (PS And Catch 22. Read the book if you can. As a veteran you will appreciate even more.)

Brad, watch The Pentagon Wars with Kelsey Grammer. It’s a comedy based upon a true story about designing and testing military weapons systems.

(09-07-2023, 09:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: From your true stories thread . . .


Toot, toot.

I think Black Book is another good WWII movie. My two favorite are probably A Bridge Too Far and The Longest Day.

The series Band of Brothers is really good also

and from the Pacific side

Tora Tora Tora is remarkable accurate for a war movie

(09-07-2023, 09:37 PM)pally Wrote: The series Band of Brothers is really good also

and from the Pacific side

Tora Tora Tora is remarkable accurate for a war movie

Midway is my go-to just because me and my old used to love watching it.

One of the only things we could ever agree on.

Watch this movie - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401504/

Ike: Countdown to DDay

It stars Tom Selleck and he is amazing in this. This goes through every major problem they faced. The immensity of the responsibility on Ike's shoulders. The political machinations all around him (They paint Charles De Gaulle as a real douche). The interplay between his generals and other commanders. The role of the weather. Most of the historical points are pulled from the memoirs of his Chief of Staff Beedle, which includes Ike writing a note for the press taking full responsibility for the DDay failure, written on the day of the landing. They show him writing it and handing it to Beedle near the end of the movie. Beedle's house keeper (I think) found it in his uniform decades later.

i don't know how many times I've watched this. It is a great movie and you'll learn a lot.

The D-Day landings on June 6, 1944 could have easily gone way worse before being done better in hindsight. As a matter of fact, other than Omaha Beach which had the most casualties and then Juno beach, the other three beachheads were secured with very light casualties. The 101st and 82 Airborne suffered around 2500 casualties by dropping into Normandy the night before the landings, so it wasn't just the landings on the beaches where the casualties occurred. In terms of the number of troops involved, the German weaponry involved, and just the massive scale of the invasion, it was a massive success to secure all five beachheads that June 6th. However what was very questionable in hindsight was the weeks that followed in which the Allies took massive casualties moving off the beachheads fighting through terrain that was very poorly anticipated known as the Bocage.

But back to June 6th. Perhaps the main reason they secured all five beachheads with relative ease other than Omaha Beach was that Hitler believed the main assault was to occur 150 miles to the northeast of Normandy in the Calais region which is the closest point in France across the channel from England. This was in large part to the Allies staging a massive fake army across the way led by General George Patton, whom Hitler believed would lead the invasion. The allies also fed the German spy network with fake messages, radio transmissions, etc. in an elaborate scheme. So as Hitler had up in that region the bulk of his Panzer tank divisions waiting for the"real" invasion, he refused to release them for weeksl thinking that Patton was still going to invade with the main force. He was fooled and by having the final say in this, the Germans did not have their tanks in Normandy until it was too late. Patton instead was given the 3rd Army and made landfall in July in northern France which helped finally break the Germans in France and pushed them back into Germany by years end.

Credit also has to be given to the 101st and 82 Airborne for helping ease the number of the casualties as well. Even though they were scattered all over Normandy on their initial drops due to the pilots trying to avoid anti-aircraft fire, they were able to seize most of their objectives while also causing mass confusion for the German army in the general Normandy area. I won't get into specifics, but if you ever watch Band of Brothers you will get a very good depiction of this.

https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/features/2016/0516_dday/docs/d-day-fact-sheet-the-beaches.pdf

The logistical planning must have been a f'n nightmare.

(09-08-2023, 01:17 PM)Millhouse Wrote: The D-Day landings on June 6, 1944 could have easily gone way worse before being done better in hindsight. As a matter of fact, other than Omaha Beach which had the most casualties and then Juno beach, the other three beachheads were secured with very light casualties. The 101st and 82 Airborne suffered around 2500 casualties by dropping into Normandy the night before the landings, so it wasn't just the landings on the beaches where the casualties occurred. In terms of the number of troops involved, the German weaponry involved, and just the massive scale of the invasion, it was a massive success to secure all five beachheads that June 6th. However what was very questionable in hindsight was the weeks that followed in which the Allies took massive casualties moving off the beachheads fighting through terrain that was very poorly anticipated known as the Bocage.

But back to June 6th. Perhaps the main reason they secured all five beachheads with relative ease other than Omaha Beach was that Hitler believed the main assault was to occur 150 miles to the northeast of Normandy in the Calais region which is the closest point in France across the channel from England. This was in large part to the Allies staging a massive fake army across the way led by General George Patton, whom Hitler believed would lead the invasion. The allies also fed the German spy network with fake messages, radio transmissions, etc. in an elaborate scheme. So as Hitler had up in that region the bulk of his Panzer tank divisions waiting for the"real" invasion, he refused to release them for weeksl thinking that Patton was still going to invade with the main force. He was fooled and by having the final say in this, the Germans did not have their tanks in Normandy until it was too late. Patton instead was given the 3rd Army and made landfall in July in northern France which helped finally break the Germans in France and pushed them back into Germany by years end.

Credit also has to be given to the 101st and 82 Airborne for helping ease the number of the casualties as well. Even though they were scattered all over Normandy on their initial drops due to the pilots trying to avoid anti-aircraft fire, they were able to seize most of their objectives while also causing mass confusion for the German army in the general Normandy area. I won't get into specifics, but if you ever watch Band of Brothers you will get a very good depiction of this.  

https://dod.defense.gov/Portals/1/features/2016/0516_dday/docs/d-day-fact-sheet-the-beaches.pdf

That's all amazing. Thanks. I live for this kind of thing. It's sad because war has died in this sense of strategic landings and all that because that type of warfare is dead, especially with satellites and things making surprise attacks about impossible.

(09-08-2023, 03:32 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The logistical planning must have been a f'n nightmare.

Needed a lot good luck but that makes the planning for this all that much more incredible.