(06-09-2015, 01:45 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I don't think the "wolves" of the AFCN are what people think they are.

Brandon Williams the Baltimore NT is a very good player.
McClendon from Pitt is solid but no Casey Hampton.
And Cleveland routinely ran scrubs out there. 

Ngata spends most of his time at DE now. 
Cam Heyward is a DE. 

Maybe not Big Bad Wolves but wolves compared to the ACC. Everybody has to go thru a learning curve.

(06-08-2015, 07:52 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Once you get NAMED the starter with no competition (Pollak should have had a shot), the whole being a "X round rookie" thing loses a lot of water. We had a guy who should have been out there for competition sake. It isn't like we had diddly at center. 

He is good depth...which is what he probably should be. 

I agree. I was frustrated that we had no battle for the starting job. It's very seldom that you see a 4th round rookie entrenched as a starter with ZERO competition.

(06-09-2015, 12:06 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Just further proof you didn't really read a damn thing I wrote and went straight to defend mode. 
Keep digging fred. 

More proof that you refuse to discuss the point that hand placement is a technique instead of a "physical ability".

I read everything you have written.  I have responded with my opinion twice.  Yet instead of discussing the issue you ignore what I wrote and just accuse me of being a blind homer.

Almost all o-linemen improve over their rookie seasons.  I don't know why you keep claiming that  a player "is what he is" based on his rookie season and will not be able to improve.

(06-09-2015, 02:35 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote:  Players generally do not change who they are. Ones that do usually have a physical transformation. 

This is not true at all.  In fact many players improve their technique more than there physical abilities.  Many linemen do get bigger and stronger in the NFL, but they also improve their technique.  Most of them get by on their physical skills in college, but have to learn technique to excell in the NFL.

WR don't get faster.  Instead the run better routes and learn how to get off press coverage.  They learn how to us ehteir bodies to shield defenders from the ball.  

RBs don't get faster.  Instead they learn how to be patient and read blocks.  Many of them never even blocked in college so they have to ;earn how to pick up blitzes.

Same goes with O-linemen.  You seem to think that there is no skill at all involved in playing O-line, but that is far from the truth.  There is a lot of technique involved.  And players can improve their technique.  PLus there is so much teamwork involved with an O-line that even veterans who have been in the league for years will play better as a unit when they have played together with the same guys for a while.

Every year I see players improve over thwir rookie seasons.  To claim that it is "against the odds" is ridiculous.

(06-09-2015, 02:35 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: And this is where I stopped reading. 
There is no way you can honestly think that unless you are just applying the horseshit logic of "He isn't Cook so he's better."

Cook was a good center. He had one bad year when he got injured and his legs never regained their strength and it fell apart for him.

Again, technique can be improved to a degree. But you can't just make someone a puncher. You can't just say "Okay, now I'm going to be a violent puncher" You either have it or you don't. If it were so easy to fix technique, why are there busts in the NFL? 

For gods sake, it wasn't a call to arms. It wasn't a call to cut him. I'm not sure where you and fred get this delusional crap. I never said cut him. I never said he couldn't get better. I said it would be hard and it would be against the odds. He has physical limitations. Players generally do not change who they are. Ones that do usually have a physical transformation. 

I mean seriously, if this is what you took away from the post I seriously have to question what your reading comprehension level is. I mean I even say he should stick in the league. But your backwards world, that's a call to arms to cut him?

You are calling a technique issue a physical limitation that is you bad. Point me to any source that saids technique is a physical limiatation...

My exact words were cut him/move on from him. For some reason you got stuck on cut him.

Just because I dont agree with you does not mean you have to resort to Ad hominem. Ppl disagree on this board all the time and talk it out instead of attacking others it takes away from what you are posting.

(06-09-2015, 04:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: More proof that you refuse to discuss the point that hand placement is a technique instead of a "physical ability".

I read everything you have written.  I have responded with my opinion twice.  Yet instead of discussing the issue you ignore what I wrote and just accuse me of being a blind homer.

Almost all o-linemen improve over their rookie seasons.  I don't know why you keep claiming that  a player "is what he is" based on his rookie season and will not be able to improve.

(06-09-2015, 04:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is not true at all.  In fact many players improve their technique more than there physical abilities.  Many linemen do get bigger and stronger in the NFL, but they also improve their technique.  Most of them get by on their physical skills in college, but have to learn technique to excell in the NFL.

WR don't get faster.  Instead the run better routes and learn how to get off press coverage.  They learn how to us ehteir bodies to shield defenders from the ball.  

RBs don't get faster.  Instead they learn how to be patient and read blocks.  Many of them never even blocked in college so they have to ;earn how to pick up blitzes.

Same goes with O-linemen.  You seem to think that there is no skill at all involved in playing O-line, but that is far from the truth.  There is a lot of technique involved.  And players can improve their technique.  PLus there is so much teamwork involved with an O-line that even veterans who have been in the league for years will play better as a unit when they have played together with the same guys for a while.

Every year I see players improve over thwir rookie seasons.  To claim that it is "against the odds" is ridiculous.

Hand placement is a by product of physical ability. Punching is a physical ability. A good punch gets hands inside. Wide hands are more a physical limitation than a technique issue. 

Again, you have jumped to the erroneous conclusion I said he can't or will not get better. You fail to grasp the concept of what I said. 

I will state this again: Players tend to get better at what they are already good at. They do not often magically get good at something they were bad at. AJ Green will never be a go across the middle tough guy WR. Andy Dalton will never be a Brett Favre cannon armed gun slinger. Mo Sanu will never be a Randy Moss deep threat. 

As far as the bolded goes, that's the biggest load of horseshit ever on these boards and you know it. 

Spin freddy spin. 

The point of this thread was to discuss his issues as a blocker. You think he has none. I get it. Move on. 

(06-09-2015, 02:20 PM)CincyProduct Wrote: I agree with Fred and I did read your post. You are claiming Bodine cant improve and im not knocking what you said because it is true as far as his technique. Which in my opinion can be improved. 

But you are making it seem like he just cant improve. Cook was an upgrade from gutcheck and was considered average. To me Bodine is clearly an upgrade from Cook who was average so in that line of thinking he is above average. 

Why in the would would u cut an above average rookie/move on from him after one year?

Especially when everyone knows players improve from one year to the next. I just dont understand you thinking on this but your write up of Bodine is spot on. Your call to arms over his skill set is a bit premature.

(06-09-2015, 05:12 PM)CincyProduct Wrote: You are calling a technique issue a physical limitation that is you bad. Point me to any source that saids technique is a physical limiatation...

My exact words were cut him/move on from him. For some reason you got stuck on cut him.

Just because I dont agree with you does not mean you have to resort to Ad hominem. Ppl disagree on this board all the time and talk it out instead of attacking others it takes away from what you are posting.

Okay, there you go. There's your post. Show me in mine where I said he COULDN'T improve. I said it would be hard and odds are against it. There was nothing about him being cut or moved on from in my original post. 

Technique issues can be driven by several factors. Physical limitations, laziness, bad coaching, inexperience. 
Guess which one Bodine falls under? 

You are adding erroneous accusations to my post that I never made. You said all those things not me. Why act like I did? 

(06-09-2015, 03:22 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Maybe not Big Bad Wolves but wolves compared to the ACC. Everybody has to go thru a learning curve.

Sure. If there was any doubt though, they should have had a competition with Pollak or Johnson. Not just given him the role. 

(06-09-2015, 04:27 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I agree. I was frustrated that we had no battle for the starting job. It's very seldom that you see a 4th round rookie entrenched as a starter with ZERO competition.

Agreed all the way.

(06-09-2015, 05:28 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Hand placement is a by product of physical ability. Punching is a physical ability. A good punch gets hands inside. Wide hands are more a physical limitation than a technique issue. 

Again, you have jumped to the erroneous conclusion I said he can't or will not get better. You fail to grasp the concept of what I said. 

I will state this again: Players tend to get better at what they are already good at. They do not often magically get good at something they were bad at. AJ Green will never be a go across the middle tough guy WR. Andy Dalton will never be a Brett Favre cannon armed gun slinger. Mo Sanu will never be a Randy Moss deep threat. 

As far as the bolded goes, that's the biggest load of horseshit ever on these boards and you know it. 

Spin freddy spin. 

The point of this thread was to discuss his issues as a blocker. You think he has none. I get it. Move on. 

I am tired of going around in circles.


Hand placement is not a physical limitation.  It is technique.  You are just wrong about this.  Please tell me exactly what limits Bodine's hands from being placed inside instead of wide?  You can't just make something up and claim it is true.

Almost every NFL player improves over his rookie season.  To say Bodine probably won't is ridiculous.

But you don't really want to have a discussion.  Instead you just want to argue.  that is why you threw out the strawman lie about me thinking Bodine has no issues as a blocker.  Just another example of you just making something up and claiming it is true.

It is a shame that someone who goes to all the trouble you do to make threads like this can't have a grown up discussion about them.

(06-09-2015, 05:28 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Hand placement is a by product of physical ability. Punching is a physical ability. A good punch gets hands inside. Wide hands are more a physical limitation than a technique issue. 

 

I'm going to disagree with what you said there.  Hand placement is a technique issue, that is a result of coaching, or not taking coaching well.  And, the whole "wide hands vs. narrow hands" in terms of punching out, is sort of a misnomer.  If an OLman has his hands too close together, it creates a fulcrum that a defender can leverage himself past, rather easily.  Perfect hand placement is near the outer edges (but not clamping them, as to commit holding) of the chest plate on a defenders shoulder pads.

(06-09-2015, 06:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm going to disagree with what you said there.  Hand placement is a technique issue, that is a result of coaching, or not taking coaching well.  And, the whole "wide hands vs. narrow hands" in terms of punching out, is sort of a misnomer.  If an OLman has his hands too close together, it creates a fulcrum that a defender can leverage himself past, rather easily.  Perfect hand placement is near the outer edges (but not clamping them, as to commit holding) of the chest plate on a defenders shoulder pads.

Disagree.
You cannot take a guy who gets wide in his hands and turn him into a puncher on the inside. 
You can coach tweaks in hand placement. You can't change how a guy gets his hands on a defender.


Bodine often ends up with his hands outside the frame because he's slow to the punch and doesn't have the length to battle back inside when the defender extends. 
That's a physical limitation not a technique one. 

Feet are easier to fix than hands. Hands are more instinctive. 

I do agree about where the hands SHOULD be. Problem is, Bodine doesn't get his hands there quickly enough (slow/wide punch) and he doesn't have the length to recover. 

(06-09-2015, 01:51 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I was thinking Boling next. 
Could really get guys thinking on him. 

I agree with that. Zeitler will have a lot more defenders rather than reading what you wrote. Boling will definitely be more open to discussion.

Something Bodine doesn't have that can't be taught is strong violent hands. It's not his game to maul, and it's just who he is.

Without this trait you need near flawless technique to become better than serviceable if you don't possess quality strength, which is why it's going to be harder for him to develop.

(06-09-2015, 06:36 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Something Bodine doesn't have that can't be taught is strong violent hands. It's not his game to maul, and it's just who he is.

Without this trait you need near flawless technique to become better than serviceable if you don't possess quality strength, which is why it's going to be harder for him to develop.

It's why guys get off his blocks easily even when he gets where he needs to be. 

I think people are confusing saying it will be difficult with saying he can't. 

(06-09-2015, 06:34 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I agree with that. Zeitler will have a lot more defenders rather than reading what you wrote. Boling will definitely be more open to discussion.

Zeitler will also have a lot less negative to discuss than most. 


Both guys are really what they will be in terms of skill set. 

They just need to keep getting better at what they do. 

(06-09-2015, 06:47 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: It's why guys get off his blocks easily even when he gets where he needs to be. 

I think people are confusing saying it will be difficult with saying he can't. 

Exactly. I'm sure he'll work hard at it, but he's just at a disadvantage.

That was one of the main pivotal reasons why he was a day 3 prospect and why trading up for him in the 4th round was... let's call it questionable. 

(06-07-2015, 10:00 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I tend to fall in the latter category. I believe that barring physical transformation (losing or gaining a significant amount of weight) players are generally what they are. Certain aspects can be refined to a degree. But you cannot change the overall game of a player.

This in a nut shell means players cant improve unless they do what you said. IF you meant something else you might want to clean this up.

Then bonesaw saids this:

(06-08-2015, 01:30 AM)bonesaw Wrote: I think Bodine will be OK.  He seemed to have the mean streak.  I noticed him drive to the end of the whistle alot.  Being competitive will mask some of his shortcomings.  When he got beat it was right away, like you said mostly hand position or over extending his weight from trying to hard to be aggressive.  To me that is all rookie mistakes.  He could definitely use some more strength/size but he can be pretty good.  Nice thread

This is your direct quote after bonesaw made his comment:

(06-08-2015, 11:19 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Rookie mistakes are things like missing a snap count, false starts or general brain farts.  Bodine's problems extend beyond rookie mistakes. Players rarely change with their hands, you can fix things like bad footwork, false steps, base too wide etc...but the problem with hands is that they are more connected to the attitude. The big punch off the snap, quick inside hands. Bodine's short arms and lack of punch make it very difficult for him to win positioning. 

Here according to your criteria you labeled things rookies can improve on, none of them none of the things players can improve had anything to do with hands according to you. And nothing on this list is the complaint you had against Bodine. So according to you if he is not improving what is approved by you he cant improve.

(06-09-2015, 05:32 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Okay, there you go. There's your post. Show me in mine where I said he COULDN'T improve. I said it would be hard and odds are against it. There was nothing about him being cut or moved on from in my original post. 

Technique issues can be driven by several factors. Physical limitations, laziness, bad coaching, inexperience. 
Guess which one Bodine falls under? 

You are adding erroneous accusations to my post that I never made. You said all those things not me. Why act like I did? 

And also you may not have directly said team should cut/move on from him, but you did say have competition with other guys because you were concerned about his hands. Which to me means move on from him.

You did a lot of indirect talking and pointing to the logical conclusion based on the facts as you see them. 

All that above is why i felt as though you said he could not improve and also why i felt as though you have a "the team should cut/move on from him" attitude. Would be nice if you could post any sources that agree with you.

(06-09-2015, 06:27 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Disagree.
You cannot take a guy who gets wide in his hands and turn him into a puncher on the inside. 
You can coach tweaks in hand placement. You can't change how a guy gets his hands on a defender.


Bodine often ends up with his hands outside the frame because he's slow to the punch and doesn't have the length to battle back inside when the defender extends. 
That's a physical limitation not a technique one. 

Feet are easier to fix than hands. Hands are more instinctive. 

I do agree about where the hands SHOULD be. Problem is, Bodine doesn't get his hands there quickly enough (slow/wide punch) and he doesn't have the length to recover. 

Your complaint for Bodine can be fixed by coaching and repetition. 

(06-09-2015, 06:27 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Disagree.
You cannot take a guy who gets wide in his hands and turn him into a puncher on the inside. 
You can coach tweaks in hand placement. You can't change how a guy gets his hands on a defender.

That is only your opinion.  You have nothing to back it up.

You can not list a single "physical limitation" that would keep Bodine from improving in this area.

I can provide hundreds of examples of players improving from their rookie seasons.  and it often has to do with technique instead of getting bigger and stronger.

I'm not saying folks are making things up; however, the weaknesses we seem to have identified here are exactly opposite of this scouting reports:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/russell-bodine?id=2543622
Carries a load in his punch and plays with vinegar.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1737148/russell-bodine

"Strong initial punch on defenders when he meets them, showing enough power to knock some off-balance and to the ground. "

I think Bodine will be just fine. He learned on the fly last year. As the game slows down for him, his natural physicality will take over.