I haven't read the previous posts, but Volson was below average last year...we just had players who were worse on the line.

(09-11-2023, 01:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Volson's were:
Snaps - 56
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 2
Pass Block Grade - 27.4
Run Block Grade - 45.2
Overall Grade - 39.1

He had the worst pass block grade of the OL yesterday.
Karras was 2nd-worst (37.3), Jonah was 3rd-worst (45.2)
Cappa had best pass block grade (66.2) but worst run block.
Orlando Brown was the best overall OL (65.1 overall).

How do you only have two pressures but that bad of a pass block grade?

(09-11-2023, 02:01 PM)Joelist Wrote: Just more attempts to deflect the blame from Burrow where it belongs. Burrow had time. He was inaccurate. He was also indecisive, clearly hesitant to scramble or even use the run part of RPO. He was not on the same page as his receivers.

Mans had time on maybe a handful of snaps. But that's about it. 

Sooner or later we got to have a respectable run and deep pass game. 

(09-11-2023, 02:06 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: How do you only have two pressures but that bad of a pass block grade?

If I had to guess, they were seeing him get beat with the defender not applying pressure to the QB in some way. I don't really know. PFF grades aren't great. It also could have to do with true pass plays, which is something they track. True Pass Plays don't include screens, play-action, RPOs, roll-outs. Cordell Volson had 16 true pass play sets and allowed both of his pressures, worst on the team. 

(09-11-2023, 02:06 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: How do you only have two pressures but that bad of a pass block grade?

Because allowing 2 pressures in a single game is really bad and he probably didn't have any particularly stand out reps in pass pro to compensate.  Single game grades are extremely volatile because a couple of bad snaps can tank your grade.  It evens out over the course of a season, which is the more useful tool.

(09-11-2023, 02:06 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: How do you only have two pressures but that bad of a pass block grade?

They've never stated exactly how they assess their blocking grades, but one would have to assume it's things like technique, footwork, etc.

It's not necessarily:
If (pressure = yes):
pass block = bad
else:
pass block = good

(09-11-2023, 01:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Volson's were:
Snaps - 56
Sacks - 0
Pressures - 2
Pass Block Grade - 27.4
Run Block Grade - 45.2
Overall Grade - 39.1

He had the worst pass block grade of the OL yesterday.
Karras was 2nd-worst (37.3), Jonah was 3rd-worst (45.2)
Cappa had best pass block grade (66.2) but worst run block.
Orlando Brown was the best overall OL (65.1 overall).

Wow. Just wow on Volson, Karras, and Jonah in terms of their PFF grades. Those are some sad numbers.

(09-11-2023, 02:08 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: Mans had time on maybe a handful of snaps. But that's about it. 

Sooner or later we got to have a respectable run and deep pass game. 

Wrong. He had time on most of his snaps. He was just inaccurate. 

(09-11-2023, 02:11 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They've never stated exactly how they assess their blocking grades, but one would have to assume it's things like technique, footwork, etc.

It's not necessarily:
If (pressure = yes):
pass block = bad
else:
pass block = good

Bottom shelf G's allow 35-40 pressures per season.  Volson is currently on pace for 34, so it does make sense mathematically.

A solid OL should be winning 95% of their pass sets.  Volson got beat on 2 out of 16, which would only be 87.75%, pretty terrible compared to the standard.

I really don't like Myles Garrett. 

Myles Garrett was toying with the Bengals offensive line yesterday ?
pic.twitter.com/Ev3DlyrYRq

— PFF (@PFF) September 11, 2023

(09-11-2023, 02:23 PM)Whatever Wrote: Bottom shelf G's allow 35-40 pressures per season.  Volson is currently on pace for 34, so it does make sense mathematically.

A solid OL should be winning 95% of their pass sets.  Volson got beat on 2 out of 16, which would only be 87.75%, pretty terrible compared to the standard.

I don't really pay attention to the exact number, but more the approximate number.
I always associate it to letter grades.

Anyone getting under 50 gets a F.
Getting 50-59 gets a D.
60-69 gets a C.
70-79 gets a B.
80+ gets an A.

(09-11-2023, 02:26 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I really don't like Myles Garrett. 

Myles Garrett was toying with the Bengals offensive line yesterday ?
pic.twitter.com/Ev3DlyrYRq

— PFF (@PFF) September 11, 2023

I absolutely love the dude..

(09-11-2023, 02:26 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I really don't like Myles Garrett.

Myles Garrett was toying with the Bengals offensive line yesterday ?
pic.twitter.com/Ev3DlyrYRq

— PFF (@PFF) September 11, 2023

Honestly there are very few centers in the league that have any shot of stopping that rush. They went with a wide 9 look which was going to force both guards to turn outward and provide zero help. The dribbbling motion with the hands was a bit theatric, however his movement was intentional. The centers vision isn't great when snapping and so Garrett moving side to side has the center guessing how he is going to block while also trying to focus on a clean snap. 

Frankly, this setup allows Garrett to rush like an edge versus an interior lineman. Look how he set him up inside then made an outside move. This isn't something centers deal with...like ever. If this is how Cleveland is going to use Garrett I would hammer the over on his sack total for the year and I'd grab DPOY as well. Now, the reason they can do this is because we were empty. This was a something I am guessing they put in specifically because of our tendency to get empty. We know Garrett isn't going to cover from there so we bring the HB back in and put him in an ALI check (Right behind Center and Guard) like we did yesterday. 

The other thing we need to consider is Joe's inability to run yesterday really hurt us. He got on the edge multiple times and instead of running either threw a weak check down or literally threw the ball in the ground. In reality, one way to play this is slide the line and motion a receiver into the slide and crack the widest guy. This would get burrow on the endge in man coverage with a two way go of either running the ball or throwing down field against one on one coverage. 

(09-11-2023, 01:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've been down on CV, but I didn't think he was too bad yesterday. Of course PFF may disagree but I though he looked better that the Center everyone loves.

I'm debating whether i want to sit and watch that again. I guess when the All 22 comes out, i can watch that. I am curious how the Oline actually played. I didn't really pay that much attn to it yesterday.

(09-11-2023, 02:01 PM)Joelist Wrote: Just more attempts to deflect the blame from Burrow where it belongs. Burrow had time. He was inaccurate. He was also indecisive, clearly hesitant to scramble or even use the run part of RPO. He was not on the same page as his receivers.

No deflection from my end. Burrow was bad but he has skins on the wall. 

Calf injury, no TC (again), opener at Clev w/new line, rain. I can stomach that game and look forward to better from him. 

I wish i could say the same about CV.

(09-11-2023, 02:45 PM)Au165 Wrote: Honestly there are very few centers in the league that have any shot of stopping that rush. They went with a wide 9 look which was going to force both guards to turn outward and provide zero help. The dribbbling motion with the hands was a bit theatric, however his movement was intentional. The centers vision isn't great when snapping and so Garrett moving side to side has the center guessing how he is going to block while also trying to focus on a clean snap. 

Frankly, this setup allows Garrett to rush like an edge versus an interior lineman. Look how he set him up inside then made an outside move. This isn't something centers deal with...like ever. If this is how Cleveland is going to use Garrett I would hammer the over on his sack total for the year and I'd grab DPOY as well. Now, the reason they can do this is because we were empty. This was a something I am guessing they put in specifically because of our tendency to get empty. We know Garrett isn't going to cover from there so we bring the HB back in and put him in an ALI check (Right behind Center and Guard) like we did yesterday. 

The other thing we need to consider is Joe's inability to run yesterday really hurt us. He got on the edge multiple times and instead of running either threw a weak check down or literally threw the ball in the ground. In reality, one way to play this is slide the line and motion a receiver into the slide and crack the widest guy. This would get burrow on the endge in man coverage with a two way go of either running the ball or throwing down field against one on one coverage. 

You may have missed my point... being I really dislike Garrett.

(09-11-2023, 02:06 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: How do you only have two pressures but that bad of a pass block grade?

I haven't watched yet but to answer your question, it's not just about pressures. It's about every snap and how you perform. You can give up 0 and still not have a good grade if you're constantly getting beat off the snap, causing the QB to adjust quicker than he should. 

I put very little weight on their grades. Very little, but it's a way to look at what they saw, then watch myself and see how accurate or off i feel they were. 

(09-11-2023, 02:23 PM)Whatever Wrote: Bottom shelf G's allow 35-40 pressures per season.  Volson is currently on pace for 34, so it does make sense mathematically.

A solid OL should be winning 95% of their pass sets.  Volson got beat on 2 out of 16, which would only be 87.75%, pretty terrible compared to the standard.

What's the definition of "bottom shelf" in this context?
Is it one of the worst starters (e.g. 50-64 in the OG rankings)?
I do have to imagine there are worse guys on teams who would allow over 40, probably even over 50 pressures if they got as many snaps as a typical starter, so I don't think Volson is the among the bottom of the barrel when factoring in backups across the league.

Many (or at least some) of us last year when Volson was drafted said he was going to take time developing.
He wasn't going to be good right out of the gate.

Should the Bengals have rolled with a different, more proven LG while Volson developed? Perhaps (my opinion is yes).
Could they roll with Scharping instead at LG as a stopgap, as Scharping was actually halfway decent at LG in HOU? Or perhaps Collins once he's back since he had early success at LG in the NFL? They could, but they probably won't because they've already tied their horse to Volson.

Volson wasn't the only OL to look bad in pass protection, but he sure hasn't taken that leap (yet) like some thought/hoped he would have after this offseason of development.

LC when fully healthy should move back to LG when he's ready to go. Especially if they want the best lineup possible to win the super bowl

(09-11-2023, 03:22 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: LC when fully healthy should move back to LG when he's ready to go. Especially if they want the best lineup possible to win the super bowl

was LC a LG before?