(09-18-2023, 03:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: OK, so someone with more insight into PFF grades has to explain this to me. Brown has 0 sacks and 4 pressures allowed. He gets a 72.1 Volson has the exact same numbers and gets a 27.1? Cappa has one less pressure and gets a 71.3. Williams gives up 2 sacks and allows 5 pressures and gets a 53.1 Did Volson sleep with some dude's wife or something? I freely admit I do not understand PFF grades, but this seems stupid.

It doesn't just seem stupid it IS stupid. PFF has done this before and it is a big reason few people take their scores seriously. They either "fanboy" some players with inflated scores or go on "vendetta" against players, never giving them good scores no matter what they do. 

(09-18-2023, 03:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: OK, so someone with more insight into PFF grades has to explain this to me. Brown has 0 sacks and 4 pressures allowed. He gets a 72.1 Volson has the exact same numbers and gets a 27.1? Cappa has one less pressure and gets a 71.3. Williams gives up 2 sacks and allows 5 pressures and gets a 53.1 Did Volson sleep with some dude's wife or something? I freely admit I do not understand PFF grades, but this seems stupid.

I've explained this multiple times in other threads, but there's more to an assessment than just "did allow pressure/sack or not."
OL get assessed on technique, footwork, etc.
An OL can do something poor and get reflected on that even if a defender didn't get a pressure.

With that said, they don't state exactly what resulted in a good/poor grade. For example, they don't say, "Well, Volson only got a 34 this game because while he only allowed 2 pressures, he routinely exhibited poor hands and footwork."

I laughed at others when they told me how well Volson did last year. WTS, I don't think he's that bad so far this year.

(09-18-2023, 02:15 PM)Joelist Wrote: The PFF grades are lower than they should be. 18 pressure and 3 sacks in 2 games is not bad at all ESPECIALLY when the pressure stat is pretty iffy in the first place and Burrow has not moved in the pocket at all. The line has played pretty well, in fact it is the best playing unit on the offense so far. Add in 4.0 YPC ground game too.

Exactly. 1 sack a game behind a QB who simply isn’t moving in the pocket against these 2 teams is actually insane and we would’ve all predicted 2-0 if Burrow wasn’t hurt if you told us we’d only give up 2 sacks to those teams

Iv seen good run blocking too outside of a couple bad quarters of running the ball.

(09-18-2023, 04:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I've explained this multiple times in other threads, but there's more to an assessment than just "did allow pressure/sack or not."
OL get assessed on technique, footwork, etc.
An OL can do something poor and get reflected on that even if a defender didn't get a pressure.

With that said, they don't state exactly what resulted in a good/poor grade. For example, they don't say, "Well, Volson only got a 34 this game because while he only allowed 2 pressures, he routinely exhibited poor hands and footwork."

Well that's stupid as well. As long as a lineman is keeping Joe clean, do I really care how fancy his footwork is or where he places his hands? I do not!!! He has one job, keep tge dline off Burrow. If he does that I don't care about the rest. (And we know he can run block)

(09-18-2023, 06:12 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Well that's stupid as well. As long as a lineman is keeping Joe clean, do I really care how fancy his footwork is or where he places his hands? I do not!!! He has one job, keep tge dline off Burrow. If he does that I don't care about the rest. (And we know he can run block)

Exactly. Ever wonder why you see lots of teams starting players with not the best PFF grades? It's because the coaches are better than PFF at evaluating how their players operate in their system. 

(09-18-2023, 06:12 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Well that's stupid as well. As long as a lineman is keeping Joe clean, do I really care how fancy his footwork is or where he places his hands? I do not!!! He has one job, keep tge dline off Burrow. If he does that I don't care about the rest. (And we know he can run block)

While I can understand that sentiment, just because you don't value that doesn't mean there aren't some that do.

With that said, that's why I post both the sacks/pressures but also the grade.
Some people only care about the sacks/pressures whereas some want the PFF grade as well because they find it valuable.

(09-18-2023, 06:24 PM)ochocincos Wrote: While I can understand that sentiment, just because you don't value that doesn't mean there aren't some that do.

With that said, that's why I post both the sacks/pressures but also the grade.
Some people only care about the sacks/pressures whereas some want the PFF grade as well because they find it valuable.

No, I'm glad you do. Like I said, I fully do not understand their grading and disagree with it a lot. Someone said they had college interns doing the grading. If that's true, it's probably why. 

(09-18-2023, 06:33 PM)Sled21 Wrote: No, I'm glad you do. Like I said, I fully do not understand their grading and disagree with it a lot. Someone said they had college interns doing the grading. If that's true, it's probably why. 

It is and it isn't.

It's a mix of full-time and part-time workers, but they do have leads that also assess after, which is why you might see an evaluation change some after the fact.

This might help you and others out who are less familiar with their grading process - https://www.pff.com/grades

Quote:WHO IS DOING THE GRADING?

PFF employs over 600 full or part-time analysts, but less than 10% of analysts are trained to the level that they can grade plays. Only the top two to three percent of analysts are on the team of “senior analysts” in charge of finalizing each grade after review. Our graders have been training for months, and sometimes years, in order to learn, understand and show mastery of our process that includes our 300-page training manual and video playbook. We have analysts from all walks of life, including former players, coaches and scouts. We don’t care if you played.
Each grade is reviewed at least once, and usually multiple times, using every camera angle available, including All-22 coaches’ tape.

For me when it comes to our OL, I just want to know that each person did the most important parts of his job, which are keep Burrow upright and open holes in the run game. I couldn’t care any less about their technique unless they’re constantly called for holding. If PFF scores are based on technique, then I will just keep using the eye test.

(09-18-2023, 06:12 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Well that's stupid as well. As long as a lineman is keeping Joe clean, do I really care how fancy his footwork is or where he places his hands? I do not!!! He has one job, keep tge dline off Burrow. If he does that I don't care about the rest. (And we know he can run block)

Except if he gets blown back and Burrow sees that happening BEFORE he can get pressured and is forced to dump it off earlier to try to avoid hits while already injured, it's not a pressure but it is still him losing and hurting the offense.

Burrow has the 2nd quickest time to throw in the NFL this year at 2.40 (a full .15 faster than even last year, .29 faster than 2021, both are very very large differences), the 31st completed air yards per attempt, and 27th intended air yards per attempt. He's sucked, yes, but also the entire offense is a mickey mouse offense of getting the ball out incredibly quickly for incredibly short distances.

(09-18-2023, 04:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I've explained this multiple times in other threads, but there's more to an assessment than just "did allow pressure/sack or not."
OL get assessed on technique, footwork, etc.
An OL can do something poor and get reflected on that even if a defender didn't get a pressure.

With that said, they don't state exactly what resulted in a good/poor grade. For example, they don't say, "Well, Volson only got a 34 this game because while he only allowed 2 pressures, he routinely exhibited poor hands and footwork."

Getting the job done vs. Style Points..

(09-18-2023, 03:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: OK, so someone with more insight into PFF grades has to explain this to me. Brown has 0 sacks and 4 pressures allowed. He gets a 72.1 Volson has the exact same numbers and gets a 27.1? Cappa has one less pressure and gets a 71.3. Williams gives up 2 sacks and allows 5 pressures and gets a 53.1 Did Volson sleep with some dude's wife or something? I freely admit I do not understand PFF grades, but this seems stupid.

PFF grades are garbage and have always been garbage. I don't trust them at all. I've seen brown get a LOT of RB chip help as well. 

(09-18-2023, 06:50 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except if he gets blown back and Burrow sees that happening BEFORE he can get pressured and is forced to dump it off earlier to try to avoid hits while already injured, it's not a pressure but it is still him losing and hurting the offense.

Burrow has the 2nd quickest time to throw in the NFL this year at 2.40 (a full .15 faster than even last year, .29 faster than 2021, both are very very large differences), the 31st completed air yards per attempt, and 27th intended air yards per attempt. He's sucked, yes, but also the entire offense is a mickey mouse offense of getting the ball out incredibly quickly for incredibly short distances.

It also isn't just how many pressures you allow.  It's how bad you got beat.  If you allow a pressure 2.2 seconds into a rep, it's nowhere near as bad as a guy just blowing straight past you into the QB's lap.  

Another factor is that often times the OL is facing a 4 man rush and somebody is either helping or getting help.  If you're getting more help and giving up the same number of pressures as someone else, you're going to grade lower.  

Personally, the OL has been ok for the most part, but given how little we've gotten out of Irv, it may be better to keep Sample in as an inline TE to help Jonah, then release as a check down target since Joe is having mobility issues.

(09-19-2023, 02:02 PM)ochocincoftw Wrote: PFF grades are garbage and have always been garbage. I don't trust them at all. I've seen brown get a LOT of RB chip help as well. 

Which is worse:

PFF grades

or

ESPN's absolutely atrocious, garbage, idiotic, moronic, stupid and dumb QBR?

(09-19-2023, 03:38 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Which is worse:

PFF grades

or

ESPN's absolutely atrocious, garbage, idiotic, moronic, stupid and dumb QBR?

Haha I don’t really like any of them.

(09-19-2023, 04:57 PM)ochocincoftw Wrote: Haha I don’t really like any of them.

What in particular don't you like about PFF grades?
Is it because you don't know the specifics on what was graded?
Or you just don't agree with the graders' opinions that someone is doing well/poor?

(09-19-2023, 05:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What in particular don't you like about PFF grades?
Is it because you don't know the specifics on what was graded?
Or you just don't agree with the graders' opinions that someone is doing well/poor?

Graders opinions.

I remember this from last year.
Just a quick search. I see this quite often.

“Patrick Mahomes had a stellar Week 1 and was a runaway top performer to open the NFL season by most accounts. Pretty much everyone agreed that the Kansas City Chiefs quarterback had a standout performance. Everyone except those doing the film grading at Pro Football Focus.

PFF is an excellent site that grades every player each week during the NFL season based on film reviews. Mahomes went 30/39 for 360 yards, five touchdowns and no interceptions in a 44-21 win over the Arizona Cardinals on Sunday. He played great, but PFF rated him as having the 8th-best performance of Week 1”

I trust posters eye test in the gameday thread better than any PFF grades.

Didn’t care for how Collins played last year but I thought they would at least keep him till he’s healthy. Guess it’s just the first of many moves to come in the wake of Burrows contract and up coming contracts.

All in all I thought the line played decent the past 2 weeks. Not stellar by any means but nothing like the start of last season. This team has always been frustrating. We can never play a complete game. The defense shows up one week but not the offense, vise versus this week (in the second half) and next week it will be ST play that kills us. It’s a never ending cycle.

I’m not too worried about the offense other than Burrows injury. But this damn defense has got to help this offense out. The scary part is we haven’t even faced a legit QB yet. Watson is still not the Watson of Houston and Balt should have beat us by 20 if Lamar was more consistent with his deep passes. If the D plays like that again this week, we are done.