(09-26-2023, 08:24 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Hopefully they learn a thing or two and continue to mix it up when Burrow is healthy. Keep ‘em guessing. An indecisive defense is toast.

What I liked about all of this was that Chase and Callahan met and discussed some options. This staff is good about listening to its players. Being a leader is not just about being a boss. 

(09-27-2023, 11:30 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Tyreek gets doubled plenty too though. Hell, he just went off for 157 yards in a game Waddle didn’t even play.

Yes, and I wasn't insinuating he doesn't. I am just curious to see a chart of all routes ran vs, just targeted routes. That would tell the whole tale, if you will. Of course a RB going off for over 200 yds would certainly loosen up some coverages for us too. 

How are we distinguishing good playcalling from bad playcalling? Are we measuring it by how successful a play was?

I find the convos about playcalling interesting because all we're really doing is making a judgement from our couches.

I will say that, as someone who watches the Bengals and Cowboys, that I notice that there are some plays from the latter where Ceedee et al at WIDE open. I woner why we never see any of that with Jamar and Tee. Are they it or not?

(09-27-2023, 11:30 AM)Wyche Wrote: What I liked about all of this was that Chase and Callahan met and discussed some options. This staff is good about listening to its players. Being a leader is not just about being a boss. 

Same thing happend last year like clockwork though. You have to wonder why these issues are coming up at the exact same time as last year. 

Everything from players complaing to the Bengals deciding to take the ball at the start of the game starting in week 3.

(09-27-2023, 11:30 AM)Wyche Wrote: What I liked about all of this was that Chase and Callahan met and discussed some options. This staff is good about listening to its players. Being a leader is not just about being a boss. 

They should have been actively moving their best player around to find mismatches and get the ball in his hands from jump street.

I will give them credit, but only in the same way someone get's a C for just showing up to gym class.

The Bengals offense is crippled by Burrow's injury, YES.... but they can do MUCH MUCH more to adapt to that and they should have been solving these problems MUCH MUCH sooner than they have. Look at the result. My goodness.

I am hoping that this young staff is a fast learner. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be studying the history of the NFL and offenses that move guys around to get them open. We'll see. But their concept of putting the same guys in the same places doing the same things for 3 years is kind of idiotic at this point. They move Chase around 1 time and he explodes for production. It's kind of a bummer that that's been there the whole time and they just never thought to do it.

(09-27-2023, 11:33 AM)NotBigzo Wrote: How are we distinguishing good playcalling from bad playcalling? Are we measuring it by how successful a play was?

I find the convos about playcalling interesting because all we're really doing is making a judgement from our couches.

I will say that, as someone who watches the Bengals and Cowboys, that I notice that there are some plays from the latter where Ceedee et al at WIDE open. I woner why we never see any of that with Jamar and Tee. Are they it or not?

It's because they continuously put the same WRs in virtually the same roles doing the same things and have for years.

The Bengals coaches have been relying on the WRs talents to get them open... which works in man coverage most of the time. But when there is cover 2 all game and the outsides are taken away the Bengals coaches have LEFT THEIR PLAYMAKERS OUT THERE almost just sacrificing them to be taken off the board and then forced the ball to 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier options.

This, to me, is coaching and scheme related. It's the NFL. You can only out-talent defenses for so long until they cook up ways to challenge that. Then you have to adapt. The Bengals adaptation has been an evolution, it seems like. Adaptations in life are typically rapid. Evolutions take forever.

The biggest thing with this, too, is Burrow's injury and lack of mobility crushes things the Bengals are good at: Off script, extend plays, roll outs, throws on the move, go balls.

The injury is a reality that they should have already adapted to and moving their best guys around into mismatches just now happening is comically poor coaching.

(09-27-2023, 11:37 AM)PDub80 Wrote: They should have been actively moving their best player around to find mismatches and get the ball in his hands from jump street.

I will give them credit, but only in the same way someone get's a C for just showing up to gym class.

The Bengals offense is crippled by Burrow's injury, YES.... but they can do MUCH MUCH more to adapt to that and they should have been solving these problems MUCH MUCH sooner than they have. Look at the result. My goodness.

I am hoping that this young staff is a fast learner. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be studying the history of the NFL and offenses that move guys around to get them open. We'll see. But their concept of putting the same guys in the same places doing the same things for 3 years is kind of idiotic at this point. They move Chase around 1 time and he explodes for production. It's kind of a bummer that that's been there the whole time and they just never thought to do it.

Lots of merit here in this post...seems they are slow to react sometimes, but they do react and adjust. After sixteen years of no "journalistic jargons" maybe I'm looking at them with the orange colored glasses a bit, lol. They've moved guys around, but not as often as they did Monday night, that's for sure.

Burrow's injury is effecting them because of his lack of mobility right now. Can't go under center, rollouts are dicey, and they are having to get the ball out quickly as a result. The deep shots are far and few between. I think the more he heals, the more they'll be able to let things develop down the field. So, for this season, it was imperative to find something that would work to get Chase more involved in a West Coast style of short passing game. I do like that they talk with their players and try to find solutions vs "my way or the highway" though.

(09-27-2023, 11:35 AM)NotBigzo Wrote: Same thing happend last year like clockwork though. You have to wonder why these issues are coming up at the exact same time as last year. 

Everything from players complaing to the Bengals deciding to take the ball at the start of the game starting in week 3.

I think a lot of this was protecting Joe though. Last season they took the ball nearly every time they won the toss. 

(09-27-2023, 11:33 AM)NotBigzo Wrote: How are we distinguishing good playcalling from bad playcalling? Are we measuring it by how successful a play was?

I find the convos about playcalling interesting because all we're really doing is making a judgement from our couches.

I will say that, as someone who watches the Bengals and Cowboys, that I notice that there are some plays from the latter where Ceedee et al at WIDE open. I woner why we never see any of that with Jamar and Tee. Are they it or not?

Other than the Jets, they haven't really faced a good defense yet though. We've seen these guys wide open vs bad defenses plenty of times. Even Tyler Boyd.  When Baltimore was running a practice squad defense, Burrow went off.

They're already adapting. We saw it Monday night with Chase being moved all over the place to prevent the defense from settling into one way to defend. And Chase out of the slot was very effective. Remember that without Tee dropping 5 balls that game is a total blowout. Likewise if we had Burrow at his usual accuracy we drop at least 30 on the Rams.

(09-27-2023, 11:54 AM)Joelist Wrote: They're already adapting. We saw it Monday night with Chase being moved all over the place to prevent the defense from settling into one way to defend. And Chase out of the slot was very effective. Remember that without Tee dropping 5 balls that game is a total blowout. Likewise if we had Burrow at his usual accuracy we drop at least 30 on the Rams.

I don't know why you don't just come out of the gate with Chase moving all over the field. A good coach puts his players in a position for success. Chase wasn't put in that position in the first couple of games. Hell, its easy to argue that none of our guys were put in that position the first two games. It was crazy to me that we threw the ball over 30 times in the first half. I feel like Taylor is just begging Burrow to reinjure his calf by doing that. Mixon has been playing really well this year, so we NEED to lean on the run until Burrow is better. Otherwise you're just rolling the dice when you don't need to. The defense and run game can win us a lot of games until Burrow is close to healthy.

(09-27-2023, 11:54 AM)Joelist Wrote: They're already adapting. We saw it Monday night with Chase being moved all over the place to prevent the defense from settling into one way to defend. And Chase out of the slot was very effective. Remember that without Tee dropping 5 balls that game is a total blowout. Likewise if we had Burrow at his usual accuracy we drop at least 30 on the Rams.

Well said, just need to iron some things out and we could be 3-0 pretty easily. We saw them adapt Monday night.

Hope to see this keep happening and we see a lot of motion with Chase being moved all over to find mismatches.

Tee won't play like that again pretty sure. The OL is looking better besides Volson who needs to play much better.

The Play Calling is getting better etc.

(09-27-2023, 01:22 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I don't know why you don't just come out of the gate with Chase moving all over the field. A good coach puts his players in a position for success. Chase wasn't put in that position in the first couple of games. Hell, its easy to argue that none of our guys were put in that position the first two games. It was crazy to me that we threw the ball over 30 times in the first half. I feel like Taylor is just begging Burrow to reinjure his calf by doing that. Mixon has been playing really well this year, so we NEED to lean on the run until Burrow is better. Otherwise you're just rolling the dice when you don't need to. The defense and run game can win us a lot of games until Burrow is close to healthy.

I said to my Wife after the game that we pay Mixon as well. I know we just gave Burrow a quarter of a billion, but you can't have him throwing 50 times right now. Protect your investment and the season. We can win games with Mixon and the defense. Let Joe play Trent Dilfer for a few weeks.

(09-27-2023, 01:22 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I don't know why you don't just come out of the gate with Chase moving all over the field. A good coach puts his players in a position for success. Chase wasn't put in that position in the first couple of games. Hell, its easy to argue that none of our guys were put in that position the first two games. It was crazy to me that we threw the ball over 30 times in the first half. I feel like Taylor is just begging Burrow to reinjure his calf by doing that. Mixon has been playing really well this year, so we NEED to lean on the run until Burrow is better. Otherwise you're just rolling the dice when you don't need to. The defense and run game can win us a lot of games until Burrow is close to healthy.

1) Perhaps because our starting QB had 0 practice this PS; pre-snap movement(s) must be coordinated by the QB. It's quite possible we needed to work on it in practice before we unleashed it in games. 

2) Perhaps Zac had to go vanilla until his starting QB was up to snuff.

3) Perhaps about 75% of this message board know more about calling NFL games than a HC who has went to 2 consecutive AFC Championship Games.

(09-27-2023, 02:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I said to my Wife after the game that we pay Mixon as well. I know we just gave Burrow a quarter of a billion, but you can't have him throwing 50 times right now. Protect your investment and the season. We can win games with Mixon and the defense. Let Joe play Trent Dilfer for a few weeks.

I don't know if Joe Burrow can play like Trent Dilfer, it isn't in his DNA and I think he is the one checking out of run plays.

Burrow wants to throw the ball 50 times.

(09-27-2023, 02:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I said to my Wife after the game that we pay Mixon as well. I know we just gave Burrow a quarter of a billion, but you can't have him throwing 50 times right now. Protect your investment and the season. We can win games with Mixon and the defense. Let Joe play Trent Dilfer for a few weeks.

Except that Joe is checking out of a lot of runs. If you're going to protect Joe from Joe, you're going to have to bench him. Otherwise, he's going to do Joe things. They ran a lot of RPO Monday for that very reason, and the competitor in Burrow checked to the pass, lol. 

(09-27-2023, 02:19 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I don't know if Joe Burrow can play like Trent Dilfer, it isn't in his DNA and I think he is the one checking out of run plays.

Burrow wants to throw the ball 50 times.

Beat me to it Nate....Joe wants the ball in his hands. It's just his nature.

(09-27-2023, 02:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I said to my Wife after the game that we pay Mixon as well. I know we just gave Burrow a quarter of a billion, but you can't have him throwing 50 times right now. Protect your investment and the season. We can win games with Mixon and the defense. Let Joe play Trent Dilfer for a few weeks.

Oh the defense won us that game. The offense did just the minimal to win...so I agree that a run-heavy offense wins it too.

Maybe these guys really do know what they're doing...

Some terrific Miami Motion offense 101 from Bengals OC Brian Callahan Wednesday. Excellent insight. pic.twitter.com/GzewVqo8BE

— Mike Petraglia (@Trags) September 27, 2023

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(09-27-2023, 02:19 PM)Wyche Wrote: Except that Joe is checking out of a lot of runs. If you're going to protect Joe from Joe, you're going to have to bench him. Otherwise, he's going to do Joe things. They ran a lot of RPO Monday for that very reason, and the competitor in Burrow checked to the pass, lol. 

And that's a great point that's hard to quantify.

What if Joe is a great QB, but he's not a great play-caller? There's always a conflict of interest with QB's calling plays as I'm sure they want to throw every time.