(06-09-2015, 07:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not saying folks are making things up; however, the weaknesses we seem to have identified here are exactly opposite of this scouting reports:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/russell-bodine?id=2543622
Carries a load in his punch and plays with vinegar.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1737148/russell-bodine

"Strong initial punch on defenders when he meets them, showing enough power to knock some off-balance and to the ground. "

I think Bodine will be just fine. He learned on the fly last year. As the game slows down for him, his natural physicality will take over.

Let me show you how much weight this carries right now:








See the invisible weight?

(06-09-2015, 07:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not saying folks are making things up; however, the weaknesses we seem to have identified here are exactly opposite of this scouting reports:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/russell-bodine?id=2543622
Carries a load in his punch and plays with vinegar.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1737148/russell-bodine

"Strong initial punch on defenders when he meets them, showing enough power to knock some off-balance and to the ground. "

I think Bodine will be just fine. He learned on the fly last year. As the game slows down for him, his natural physicality will take over.

I swear I was about to post his scouting report. But wanted to see what redlegs was going to replay about saying  that he wouldnt improve.

(06-09-2015, 07:05 PM)CincyProduct Wrote: This in a nut shell means players cant improve unless they do what you said. IF you meant something else you might want to clean this up.

Then bonesaw saids this:
This is your direct quote after bonesaw made his comment:

Here according to your criteria you labeled things rookies can improve on, none of them none of the things players can improve had anything to do with hands according to you. And nothing on this list is the complaint you had against Bodine. So according to you if he is not improving what is approved by you he cant improve.

And also you may not have directly said team should cut/move on from him, but you did say have competition with other guys because you were concerned about his hands. Which to me means move on from him.

You did a lot of indirect talking and pointing to the logical conclusion based on the facts as you see them. 

All that above is why i felt as though you said he could not improve and also why i felt as though you have a "the team should cut/move on from him" attitude. Would be nice if you could post any sources that agree with you.

So again, just you jumping to conclusions? 

(06-09-2015, 07:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is only your opinion.  You have nothing to back it up.

You can not list a single "physical limitation" that would keep Bodine from improving in this area.

I can provide hundreds of examples of players improving from their rookie seasons.  and it often has to do with technique instead of getting bigger and stronger.

Short arms.
Poor hand strength.
Lack of core strength.

(06-09-2015, 07:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not saying folks are making things up; however, the weaknesses we seem to have identified here are exactly opposite of this scouting reports:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/russell-bodine?id=2543622
Carries a load in his punch and plays with vinegar.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1737148/russell-bodine

"Strong initial punch on defenders when he meets them, showing enough power to knock some off-balance and to the ground. "

I think Bodine will be just fine. He learned on the fly last year. As the game slows down for him, his natural physicality will take over.

Oh college scouting reports. Neat. 


Look I can do it too:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/643144-andy-dalton-2011-nfl-draft-scouting-report
Dalton does not get rattled in the pocket 


http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/andrew-dalton?id=2495143
Dalton is a well prepared player that scans the whole field and makes solid decisions

Not everything translates. Not every report is accurate after a year in the NFL.

Guess the player: " has the strength and hand technique to shed quickly. ... Good lateral quickness to evade blockers and has the speed to beat backs to the flanks. ... Gets good depth on his pass drop and is quick to close on the ball. Can break down in space to make the secure open-field tackle."

"Nice range in pass coverage ... Always around the football ... Explodes to and through the ball carrier ... Hits very hard and is a great open-field tackler ... Uses his hands well to shed blockers and locate tacklers. A huge threat to get to the quarterback and blitz ... Has better range in zone than given credit for"

(06-09-2015, 09:21 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Oh college scouting reports. Neat. 


Look I can do it too:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/643144-andy-dalton-2011-nfl-draft-scouting-report
Dalton does not get rattled in the pocket 


http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/andrew-dalton?id=2495143
Dalton is a well prepared player that scans the whole field and makes solid decisions

Not everything translates. Not every report is accurate after a year in the NFL.

I agree awareness dos not always translate; however, that doesn't make Bodine any weaker in the upper body or with his punch. He may never translate well to the NFL, but it's not because of his weak punch and hands strength.

I agree not every report is accurate; even some on a message board miss the mark.

There was actually a guy on the Mothership that suggested Bodine's arms were too short to snap the ball. 

(06-09-2015, 09:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I agree awareness dos not always translate; however, that doesn't make Bodine any weaker in the upper body or with his punch. He may never translate well to the NFL, but it's not because of his weak punch and hands strength.

I agree not every report is accurate; even some on a message board miss the mark.

There was actually a guy on the Mothership that suggested Bodine's arms were too short to snap the ball. 

Right. So why even post it?
Does it make him weaker? No. But he's not going up against ACC DTs he can out muscle and get by with his bad form. He's facing longer and stronger defenders. 
The competition is stronger. 

Everyone is wrong eventually.
I never said he couldn't get better. It'd just be an uphill battle. I don't see why people (fred and cincy) got so mad I suggested it might be hard for him to get better but not that it was impossible or he should be cut, despite what cincy thinks I said. 

I'm in favor of getting the 5 best OL on the field. Whether it includes Bodine or not, I do not care. As long as it is the best lineup we could produce. 

(06-09-2015, 09:38 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I don't see why people (fred and cincy) got so mad I suggested it might be hard for him to get better but not that it was impossible or he should be cut, despite what cincy thinks I said. 

I never got mad about anything.

You were the one that started bawling your eyes out when I just disagreed with you.

(06-09-2015, 09:16 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Short arms.
Poor hand strength.
Lack of core strength.

Short arms have nothing to do with initial punch.  And as far as recovering when the defender beats him off the block that is all about footwork instead of arm length. You can't "reach" to maintain a block.  It is all about moving the feet.  Long arms are basically only a big advantage in pass blocking to keep the defender from getting his hands on you.

Bodine does not have poor hand strength, and if he does lack core strength then even you agree that that can be corrected.

(06-10-2015, 01:16 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Short arms have nothing to do with initial punch.  And as far as recovering when the defender beats him off the block that is all about footwork instead of arm length. You can't "reach" to maintain a block.  It is all about moving the feet.  Long arms are basically only a big advantage in pass blocking to keep the defender from getting his hands on you.

Bodine does not have poor hand strength, and if he does lack core strength then even you agree that that can be corrected.

Short arms have everything to do with an initial punch when it's slow and the defender gets his hands on Bodine first and he can't recover. 

Then why do defenders get off his blocks easily when Bodine does make the block? 

(06-09-2015, 09:38 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Right. So why even post it?
Does it make him weaker? No. But he's not going up against ACC DTs he can out muscle and get by with his bad form. He's facing longer and stronger defenders. 
The competition is stronger. 

Everyone is wrong eventually.
I never said he couldn't get better. It'd just be an uphill battle. I don't see why people (fred and cincy) got so mad I suggested it might be hard for him to get better but not that it was impossible or he should be cut, despite what cincy thinks I said. 

I'm in favor of getting the 5 best OL on the field. Whether it includes Bodine or not, I do not care. As long as it is the best lineup we could produce. 

I did not get mad, this is a discussion board and i did not agree with what you posted and explained to you why...Or are you telling me that I got mad? Just like you made up the criteria for how some one can improve based on what?

(06-10-2015, 04:43 PM)CincyProduct Wrote: I did not get mad, this is a discussion board and i did not agree with what you posted and explained to you why...Or are you telling me that I got mad? Just like you made up the criteria for how some one can improve based on what?

No, you just made random conclusions and said that's what I said. That's why I said you were mad. 


You harped on things I never actually said. 

(06-07-2015, 11:53 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: That's part of my logic behind why I am pessimistic about a player like Bodine really being able to take the next step. 

Maualuga was too limited an athlete to really change his physique enough to change as a player. He's always going to be a downhill thumper at LB.

It's really rare a guy can truly change how they play, especially with physical limitations. 

He was a rookie, that started, calling signals, that anchored a top ten rushing attack, that played all 16 games as starter.

What is the next step you are worried about?

(06-10-2015, 11:30 PM)Slappy from New Haven Wrote: He was a rookie, that started, calling signals, that anchored a top ten rushing attack, that played all 16 games as starter.

What is the next step you are worried about?

The actual being a good player part? 

He didn't "anchor", he was the worst starter when Newhouse played....

I even said his durability was a big plus. 

(06-07-2015, 10:00 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Overall this is another area I have concern about long-term ability to really improve. Where he struggles here is similar to how he struggled blocking guys in the 1/0 gaps. He loses the hand battle, loses leverage and doesn't have enough behind him to stone it. Tight in the hips and late to the party. As with the 1/0 blocking, when teams start doing this, the coaches need to find ways to minimize the effect these have on the game, and for the most part they did. Quick passes and RBs picking up what's not blocked. It isn't perfect and can limit the offense.

In the end, can Bodine find a way to transform himself as a player? I don't know, I'm not overly optimistic. Too often you see defenders get off his blocks with too much ease and get in on a play.

Here you clearly pointed to his hands and hips as the issue. You did not bring up footwork.

(06-08-2015, 11:19 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Rookie mistakes are things like missing a snap count, false starts or general brain farts.  Bodine's problems extend beyond rookie mistakes. Players rarely change with their hands, you can fix things like bad footwork, false steps, base too wide etc...but the problem with hands is that they are more connected to the attitude. The big punch off the snap, quick inside hands. Bodine's short arms and lack of punch make it very difficult for him to win positioning. 


Thanks. 

Once again you talk about Bodines hands as a problem that can not be fixed, then you go on to say things that can be fixed and in effect improve a player. Hands were not on your list as improvable, so you are saying Bodine can not improve. So yes you did say it, maybe you dont realize you said it but you did say it.....Which is why I asked you if you wanted to clean it up.

(06-09-2015, 06:27 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Disagree.
You cannot take a guy who gets wide in his hands and turn him into a puncher on the inside. 
You can coach tweaks in hand placement. You can't change how a guy gets his hands on a defender.


Bodine often ends up with his hands outside the frame because he's slow to the punch and doesn't have the length to battle back inside when the defender extends. 
That's a physical limitation not a technique one. 

Feet are easier to fix than hands. Hands are more instinctive. 

I do agree about where the hands SHOULD be. Problem is, Bodine doesn't get his hands there quickly enough (slow/wide punch) and he doesn't have the length to recover. 

Again you point to feet as fixable, but this time you make the ability to put hands in a certain place a rare skill set as opposed to a teachable technique.

(06-10-2015, 05:04 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: No, you just made random conclusions and said that's what I said. That's why I said you were mad. 


You harped on things I never actually said. 

The problem is you made a list of things that are fixable for a rookie to improve. None of the things on your list are a problem you had with Bodine. Then you go on to say hands are his problem, and that according to you, arent improvable.....You are saying he cant improve....

I made no random conclusions this is all what you typed, and once again the reason I disagreed with you. You have yet to put a source up that saids anything to support what you have typed. Just because you say does not make it true. 

And I am not angry just simply disagreeing with what you said.

(06-10-2015, 05:04 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: No, you just made random conclusions and said that's what I said. That's why I said you were mad. 


You harped on things I never actually said. 

He made the assumption that a Bengal fan would not want a player on the roster who is bad and can not improve.

Almost anyone else here who claimed that a player was bad and could not improve would be calling for that player to be cut.  So don't get all upset that he assumed you were like everyone else here.

(06-10-2015, 02:47 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Short arms have everything to do with an initial punch when it's slow and the defender gets his hands on Bodine first and he can't recover. 

Then why do defenders get off his blocks easily when Bodine does make the block? 

Arm length has nothing to do with punch speed.

Man, excellent OP. Awesome analysis.

Have to agree with what you say, i think Bodine can be solid for us but i question his upside
with his lack of initial punch.