(06-08-2015, 11:40 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: My goals for my starting QB go beyond outplaying draft busts taken ahead of him.  Twenty years from now I won't be telling myself about "old school Bengals QB" outperforming "first round bust" from same draft class.  I'll just being trying to remember how he and the team did.

Andy needs to do much better for us to improve.  I couldn't care less about Ponder, Gabbert or Locker.  Two are backups and one is out of the league.  I'd prefer to compare our starting QB, who just signed a huge extension, to other starting QB's.  You know, his peers.

I have higher goals for him and the team as well, and if his weapons are available throughout the season, I think he will break his own franchise records for TDs and yards, win the AFC North, and make it to the AFC Championship game. 

His peers have not fared much better than Dalton.  Luck, Tannehill, and Newton were drafted at similar times and handed the reigns.  Luck is in a class of his own, but still struggled in the playoffs (maybe they should give up on him?).  Tannehill just signed a similar contract with zero postseason appearances.  Hey, at least he didn't stink in the playoffs (and FWIW, I don't think Dalton played poorly against SD or the Colts).  Newton?  Just got a huge deal.  Made the playoffs twice, I believe, and has one playoff win against a Cardinals team starting their third string QB. 

Taking their respective division's competition, I think Dalton has done quite well compared to these "peers".

(06-08-2015, 01:28 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Taking their respective division's competition, I think Dalton has done quite well compared to these "peers".

Our last QB played miles above the rest of his draft class, too.  It's a nice start, but there has to be more to it. As for Dalton's stats, I am fine with 2013 being the best season he ever has but he needs to get closer to those 2013 numbers and show that 2014 was an anomaly.

(06-08-2015, 11:36 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm not sure I follow this logic.  I mean, that game happened.  It counted.  Not only that, but we've seen similar lows from him numerous times.  So I'm not even sure you could say it was that much an anomaly.  

Being fair, he's as bad or as good in 2014 as his total stats add up to.  I mean, what's to stop us from taking some of his better games off his stat line, because they weren't the norm, to try insinuate that he was really worse?  What would be the difference?

-Andy Dalton posted a QB ranking that ranked 25thth among qualifying QB's. (200 attempts or more)

-Mark Sanchez, Kyle Orton, Teddy Bridgewater, Austin Davis and Shaun Hill all had higher ratings.

-Jay Cutler, who was benched, posted a QB rating that was over 5 pts higher.

-He threw for under 20 TD's. (19)

-Despite ranking 18th in TD's, he ranked 3rd in INT's.  (His TD to INT ratio was awful)

The guy had a really disappointing year, especially coming off that boneheaded extension.  He had yet another dismal performance in the postseason as well.  I'm sorry, but it's hard to get very excited for his prospects moving forward.  Primetime game or no primetime game, the guy played lilke a bum last season.

My overall point is that Dalton needs to find more consistency. He looks like Drew Brees one week, Akili Smith the next. 

The 2.0 game really was an anomaly, as his previous low passer rating was 40.8 in his rookie season. So lets be honest, that was easily the worst game of his career and it's not close really. That said, he has had a disproportionate amount of truly BAD games. Games where he's thrown multiple picks, or had a rating in the 50's. That's what frustrates me the most about him. When he's off, he really stinks it up.

I can understand why you're not excited about his prospects in the future, and I don't think the dude will ever be a top 10 QB, but I'd be willing to bet he'll improve on last season. The fact that MLJ and Eifert missed the entire season and AJ missed basically 5-6 games surely didn't help him. Just about any QB will suffer with his top targets missing that much time, if we're being realistic.

As for the dismal postseason performance, you probably know where I stand on that. It's tough to find ANY players who have played well in the bright lights for Marvin Lewis. So I can't be sure that it's a Dalton problem more than a "Marv can't get the best out of any of his players" problem. 

(06-08-2015, 08:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is amazing the lengths you will gpo to bash agood performance by Dalton.

If 3 tds was so easy to get then why were only 3 other QBs in the league able to do it?  And why were only TWO able to get 3 tds and zero ints?

And there have been plenty of other good games Dalton has had against good teams.

Two points...

You say a good performance, I have no issue with that, it was good. My issue is it was referred to as a "shredding" performance. 

BTW a total of 4 QB's out of the 16 they played had 3 TD's - that is 1/4 of all the Qb's they faced. You said 3 (+Dalton in the league...nice slant) It was not a good Defense and it was not a "shredding" performance. "Good" I agree with.

Also the lengths I went to was posting the stats...AKA facts. I know it really makes the "Yea but Dalton is above average" point of view hard to defend, sorry.

(06-08-2015, 10:17 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I remember that.  I was going to change Palmer's number to -6 since he had so many.  Then he quit.  I still can't believe how the media has still supported Palmer through it all and continued to slam the Bengals. 

LOL...you are too easy. FYI here is some data , stats, facts or whatever it is you want to try and debunk. This is going to really make some of you very mad but here is the link to see for yourself ([url= http://www.footballperspective.com/most-pick-sixes-thrown-in-nfl-history/]here[/url]). 

Dalton throws a higher % of INT's than Carson Palmer BY 1.3%. The Pick six you are referring to is separated by O.O1%. LOL. 


Carson Palmer  - 14.1% Int's  & .46% Pick-Six ratio
Andy Dalton  - 15.4% Int's & .45% Pick-Six ratio

(06-08-2015, 11:08 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: LOL...you are too easy. FYI here is some data , stats, facts or whatever it is you want to try and debunk. This is going to really make some of you very mad but here is the link to see for yourself ([url= http://www.footballperspective.com/most-pick-sixes-thrown-in-nfl-history/]here[/url]). 

Dalton throws a higher % of INT's than Carson Palmer BY 1.3%. The Pick six you are referring to is separated by O.O1%. LOL. 


Carson Palmer  - 14.1% Int's  & .46% Pick-Six ratio
Andy Dalton  - 15.4% Int's & .45% Pick-Six ratio

That's an article from the beginning of the season in 2013 for one. and another thing is the link doesn't work (you have to erase a couple of things at the end of the URL to make it work).

http://www.footballperspective.com/most-pick-sixes-thrown-in-nfl-history

(06-08-2015, 11:13 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: That's an article from the beginning of the season in 2013 for one. and another thing is the link doesn't work (you have to erase a couple of things at the end of the URL to make it work).

http://www.footballperspective.com/most-pick-sixes-thrown-in-nfl-history

Thanks for fixing...adding 2104 that will make it even uglier for some. Hmm.

(06-04-2015, 09:31 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I really hope he does as well Bonnie. Dalton's problems have never been that he can't throw, and a lot of the blah, blah the press writes and you hear on here.

I really hope Hue and Marvin can pull their heads out of their asses and quit trying to mold Andy into this or that. I hope they can learn to game-plan to his strengths and quit trying to make "their plan" work !

I believe this has been a very large part of Andy's problem, how much is unknown but I'd like to find out !

Here's to Andy

His problem is decisionmaking and of all.. Winning that damn playoff game. If he can win that, many will get off his back.

(06-08-2015, 11:35 PM)milksheikh Wrote: His problem is decisionmaking and of all.. Winning that damn playoff game. If he can win that, many will get off his back.

After reading this thread and seeing the comments made that just blindly believe the guy is a bum, he could win the Super Bowl, be named the MVP and people would still say the other team wasn't that good, and he just didn't screw up, the defense carried him, etc, etc, etc. 

Dalton will never be Manning, Brady, Rodgers, one of the elites however, if he can get the mental aspects of his game corrected and be consistent he can very easily be a very solid QB able to guide this team. 

(06-08-2015, 10:36 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: "Good" I agree with.

Also the lengths I went to was posting the stats...AKA facts. I know it really makes the "Yea but Dalton is above average" point of view hard to defend, sorry.

Isn't "good" = "above average"?

And besides you only posted the stats from ONE game.  It really proves nothing.

(06-08-2015, 11:08 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: LOL...you are too easy. FYI here is some data , stats, facts or whatever it is you want to try and debunk. This is going to really make some of you very mad but here is the link to see for yourself ([url= http://www.footballperspective.com/most-pick-sixes-thrown-in-nfl-history/]here[/url]). 

Dalton throws a higher % of INT's than Carson Palmer BY 1.3%. The Pick six you are referring to is separated by O.O1%. LOL. 

The fact is that Palmer has a higher career interception percentage (3.2) than Dalton (3.1).

Guess that is going to make you pretty mad, eh?

Seems pretty cut and dried, that Dalton is the 2015 starting qb for the Bengals. I don't hate Dalton, could he improve ? Sure. The fact remains he's the Bengals qb and I will chose to support him until that changes.

WHO DEY!!!!!!

(06-10-2015, 04:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The fact is that Palmer has a higher career interception percentage (3.2) than Dalton (3.1).

Guess that is going to make you pretty mad, eh?

Is it not standard procedure to use 2 decimal places in statistics?

.......Att........INT.......%
CP...4,906.....155...3.16
AD...2,111.....66.....3.13

So .03% higher, which means if/when Dalton throws 4,906 passes in the NFL he will have thrown 154 INTs to Palmer's 155...well, I'll admit that is less! I'd make some excuse about Andy not having to face Ed Reed and Troy in their primes, but that gets into qualitative and subjective this-n-that's.

Here's what I want to know.

Why does every Andy argument come down to comparisons to Carson Palmer and other previous Bengals? That doesn't happen with any other player on this team.

When we discuss Andy, it's "Andy is good because franchise records and team wins!"

When we discuss any other player, it's "PlayerX sucks because he isn't a perennial All-Pro compared to the other players around the league!" from those same people.

I don't think I'll ever understand it.

(06-10-2015, 12:44 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Here's what I want to know.

Why does every Andy argument come down to comparisons to Carson Palmer and other previous Bengals? That doesn't happen with any other player on this team.

When we discuss Andy, it's "Andy is good because franchise records and team wins!"

When we discuss any other player, it's "PlayerX sucks because he isn't a perennial All-Pro compared to the other players around the league!" from those same people.

I don't think I'll ever understand it.

Seems only natural to compare him to his predecessor.   

(06-10-2015, 12:47 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Seems only natural to compare him to his predecessor.   

I have no problem with all of the Carson non-sense if people will at least 1. acknowledge that it doesn't automatically make Andy a good QB and 2. use the same criteria in other discussions regarding other players.

If Andy being somewhere around on par statistically with our last QB makes him good, then a guy like Jermaine Gresham should be worshiped by those same people.

(06-10-2015, 12:53 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I have no problem with all of the Carson non-sense if people will at least 1. acknowledge that it doesn't automatically make Andy a good QB and 2. use the same criteria in other discussions regarding other players.

If Andy being somewhere around on par statistically with our last QB makes him good, then a guy like Jermaine Gresham should be worshiped by those same people.

Was the guy Jermaine Gresham replaced voted the top player in college football and drafted #1 overall in the NFL draft?  

(06-10-2015, 12:59 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Was the guy Jermaine Gresham replaced voted the top player in college football and drafted #1 overall in the NFL draft?  

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

After the guys are in the NFL, draft position sort of goes out the window. You don't win championships because some of your players are better than the guys from your team 10 years ago. You don't win championships because your guy drafted in the 2nd round has similar stats to the guy drafted in 2003 in the first round.

You're making almost zero sense with these arguments, if you can even call them arguments. They're just sentences that aren't real rebuttals against my points. You've yet to actually show me why it makes sense to compare 1 guy to former Bengals but our other players can only be compared to their peers and we don't care what previous Bengals at their position have done.

(06-10-2015, 01:04 PM)djs7685 Wrote: What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

After the guys are in the NFL, draft position sort of goes out the window. You don't win championships because some of your players are better than the guys from your team 10 years ago. You don't win championships because your guy drafted in the 2nd round has similar stats to the guy drafted in 2003 in the first round.

You're making almost zero sense with these arguments, if you can even call them arguments. They're just sentences that aren't real rebuttals against my points. You've yet to actually show me why it makes sense to compare 1 guy to former Bengals but our other players can only be compared to their peers and we don't care what previous Bengals at their position have done.

You wanted to know why no one is talking about the guy Jermaine replaced.  Hell, I don't even remember who our last TE was at this point without looking it up.  

Dalton's the QB.  Carson was the previous QB.  The QB is top dog, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that the two would be compared against one another.  Especially when you have fans claiming how bad the current QB is. 

Relative to Carson, he doesn't appear to be as bad as people are saying he is.   

(06-10-2015, 01:07 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: You wanted to know why no one is talking about the guy Jermaine replaced.  Hell, I don't even remember who our last TE was at this point without looking it up.  

Dalton's the QB.  Carson was the previous QB.  The QB is top dog, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that the two would be compared against one another.  Especially when you have fans claiming how bad the current QB is. 

Relative to Carson, he doesn't appear to be as bad as people are saying he is.   

Here's my issue as simply as I can put it.

"Andy is good because he has some better stats than Carson."

"Gresham sucks because he's not as good as other TEs in the league."

Those mindsets come from some of the same people on here, and that doesn't make sense to me. Why not compare Gresh to the TEs of the past 10 years in Cincinnati if that's how you want to judge the QB? Why not judge Andy against the other QBs in the league if that's how you want to judge Gresh? My issue isn't with anyone that remains consistent and fair in their comparisons. If you're consistent, then my point isn't about you.

Also, where are people talking about how bad he is? I've honestly not seen even 1 person that isn't a troll account saying that he's terrible. There are a few in this thread that are definitely overhyping the guy, but I don't see much of the opposite on this message board. The new board has seemingly weeded out a lot of the anti-Andy trolls.

Carson is definitely better than some are willing to give him credit for, but with how he left here, some people will always hold that against him and critique him MUCH harder than they would if he left on good terms. CP is a solid QB and had an amazing couple of years. He was considered top 3 at his position for at least a year or two, and that's impressive.