(11-28-2023, 11:17 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I have a feeling that the offense will be simplified somewhat going forward.  More under center formations, straight ahead runs, short PA passes to backs, TEs and receivers underneath, at least until this inexperienced QB gains a little confidence.

I'd really like to see a focus on a man/gap rushing attack from under center.
Don't put the weight of the team on a backup QB's shoulders.

(11-28-2023, 11:14 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I feel like this draft will be offense first.

I doubt the Bengals go TE in Rd 1 unless Bowers makes it to them.

I think it will either be WR or OT, but it will depend on FA.

Would you rather - keep Higgins and draft an OT in Rd 1 knowing the history of Bengals drafting/developing OL, or keep Jonah and draft Odunze in Rd 1 knowing how well they have been able to draft WRs early?

It really depends on where the pick is.

Going off the Consensus Big Board, there's 3 T's in the Top 10(Fashanu, Alt, and Latham) and only 1 WR(Harrison, who we aren't getting unless he pulls a Jalen Carter).  If we're picking Top 10, T is the better target to maximize value.

Problem is, there's a huge gap from Latham at 10 to Fuaga at 24.  There's 4 WR's currently graded in the teens(Odunze, Nabers, Coleman, and Egbuka).  So, if we're picking in the teens, WR is the safer target.  

OL development is an unknown, because we have to assume we'll have a new OL coach next year.  I don't think we can fairly calculate that.

I'd prefer to let Jonah walk and be drafting high enough to get one of the Top 2 T's.  The lack of athleticism on the OL has been a topic of discussion and the only way you can improve that is by turning over the starters.  But if we land outside the Top 10, we are going to have to make a big reach for one and I think the focus has to shift.

Most likely, Jonah walks, Tee gets tagged, and they bring in a stopgap RT and just stick to the board, though.

(11-28-2023, 11:36 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'd really like to see a focus on a man/gap rushing attack from under center.
Don't put the weight of the team on a backup QB's shoulders.

They tried that last game.  It didn't go well.

(11-28-2023, 12:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: It really depends on where the pick is.

Going off the Consensus Big Board, there's 3 T's in the Top 10(Fashanu, Alt, and Latham) and only 1 WR(Harrison, who we aren't getting unless he pulls a Jalen Carter).  If we're picking Top 10, T is the better target to maximize value.

Problem is, there's a huge gap from Latham at 10 to Fuaga at 24.  There's 4 WR's currently graded in the teens(Odunze, Nabers, Coleman, and Egbuka).  So, if we're picking in the teens, WR is the safer target.  

OL development is an unknown, because we have to assume we'll have a new OL coach next year.  I don't think we can fairly calculate that.

I'd prefer to let Jonah walk and be drafting high enough to get one of the Top 2 T's.  The lack of athleticism on the OL has been a topic of discussion and the only way you can improve that is by turning over the starters.  But if we land outside the Top 10, we are going to have to make a big reach for one and I think the focus has to shift.

Most likely, Jonah walks, Tee gets tagged, and they bring in a stopgap RT and just stick to the board, though.

The last bold line probably is what happens, but that's so risky and not good for long-term growth.
We saw last year how the board fell and the Bengals ended up not taking a TE at all.
Now their TE room is terrible.

I'd like to think this is Pollack's last chance, but frankly who knows with this organization.

(11-28-2023, 12:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The last bold line probably is what happens, but that's so risky and not good for long-term growth.
We saw last year how the board fell and the Bengals ended up not taking a TE at all.
Now their TE room is terrible.

I'd like to think this is Pollack's last chance, but frankly who knows with this organization.

I don't have a problem with at least spraying some Flex-Seal on all the holes in FA to open up the draft board, personally.  While we didn't get a TE, it's starting to look like we hit on a lot of our picks.  

In that case, I think they will prioritize T and WR, anyways, as they are premium positions and expensive in FA, but they have flexibility in case a guy like Bowers falls to them or a QB drops and they get an offer they can't refuse.  

Missing the playoffs will mean there have to be scapegoats.  Pollack is logically top of the list.  They gave him a ton of draft picks that he failed to develop.  They gave him the benefit of the doubt and spent a ton on proven FA's.  The improvement has been marginal. 

(11-28-2023, 01:47 PM)Whatever Wrote: I don't have a problem with at least spraying some Flex-Seal on all the holes in FA to open up the draft board, personally.  While we didn't get a TE, it's starting to look like we hit on a lot of our picks.  

In that case, I think they will prioritize T and WR, anyways, as they are premium positions and expensive in FA, but they have flexibility in case a guy like Bowers falls to them or a QB drops and they get an offer they can't refuse.  

Missing the playoffs will mean there have to be scapegoats.  Pollack is logically top of the list.  They gave him a ton of draft picks that he failed to develop.  They gave him the benefit of the doubt and spent a ton on proven FA's.  The improvement has been marginal. 

Worst case is they blame missing playoffs on Burrow's injury and, "we'll be good next year since Burrow will be back," staying the course.
I'd like to see Pollack gone, but I'm not holding my breath for any coach/coordinator being let go.

(11-28-2023, 12:41 PM)Whatever Wrote: They tried that last game.  It didn't go well.

Well they should find ways to do better then.
If they can't actually get the run game going while having this lower quality passing game, they're basically screwed.

FWIW, I had the game on but I didn't notice many under-center plays. Maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention.

(11-27-2023, 11:31 PM)Whatever Wrote: What mid-round WR have we hit on that's been as good as Hubbard?  Marvin Jones certainly isn't equivalent, not to mention you're considering Atkins the only real hit.  If you want to prioritize DL, that's one thing.  However, this myth that you can always get WR's and RB's later in the draft is just that, a myth.

Why would any team be modeling themselves after a club that has one playoff win since 2015?  The Ravens have a unanimous MVP at QB who's 1-3 as a starter in playoffs.  Why copy a team that's less successful than ours?

The second round is a great round to get receivers and backs. We've gotten some gems in that round. I'd prefer we stick to the second or later for those players and get premier (1st round) talent along the oline/dline and at corner. Of course there are prospects that are too good to pass on, and you absolutely have to draft best player available. I'm just stating what I would prefer to happen. 

Another Tee Higgins isn't going to solve our problems on offense or defense. With all our skill position talent, we still struggle to put up points against good teams. That tells me the issue that's holding us back lies somewhere else.

Didn't the Ravens win two Super Bowls in the last 23 years? If you can win a super bowl every 10 or so years after rebuilding between wins that's pretty good. They have a great shot this year in my opinion and it's only been 6 or 7 years since their last win (good turnaround on the rebuild).

For all the resources we've thrown at quarterbacks and receivers over the years we have nothing to show for it. Just look at the top offenses in the league, they all are able to impose their will in the running game and along the line of scrimmage. If we can't learn to do that we'll be stuck where we've been the last couple of years offensively--struggling in playoff games to put up points. I'm not saying our offense is bad. But look at our playoff numbers, we suck. If we can develop a balanced attack this offense is capable of leading the league, and we'll reduce the injury risk on Burrow too. 

IMO, the coaches have a great opportunity at the end of the year to develop the running game and defense. Take advantage of that opportunity and then utilize the draft to continue to bolster those areas and we can be a much better team next year--more balanced offensively and way tougher to stop.

(11-28-2023, 02:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Well they should find ways to do better then.
If they can't actually get the run game going while having this lower quality passing game, they're basically screwed.

FWIW, I had the game on but I didn't notice many under-center plays. Maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention.

Well, we didn't run a lot of plays, period.  But the under center stuff was particularly bad.  

We're tanking for draft position, at this point.  The staff isn't going to go balls out to rework the offense when the goal is draft position.  They won't make it obvious, but they aren't trying to win at this point.

(11-27-2023, 01:26 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: If we lost out and stay at 5 wins, things could swing in our favor for draft position.

There are only 4 teams with less than 4 wins (patriots, panthers, bears, cardinals).

With Murray back with the cardinals they could win a few more, but who knows? I don’t expect us leapfrogging these 4 teams.

There are 6 four win teams above us in the draft order (jets, chargers, bucs, titans, giants, commanders).

Out of this group I think the commanders likely don’t win many more games after trading their best defensive players away. The giants also look bad and have a lot of injuries.

Otherwise the jets, chargers, titans, and bucs are talented teams and should pass below us in the draft order.

The packers, rams, saints, and raiders have 5 wins and are below us in the standings right now, but they are talented and should win more than us down the stretch.


I’m fully expecting us to drop from the 15 spot to pick 7, which would be great draft position to improve the team going into next year.

With our remaining schedule I really don’t see us with a chance to beat anyone except for the Steelers and maybe Indy. If we lose out I know it’s not great for morale, but I really think it will be best for the team long term as it will force the coaches and management to reflect, make changes, and improve the team.

Who do you think we can grab at pick 7? I’m hoping to see us grab an offensive lineman or defensive lineman.

Im tired of all the wide receiver picks. You can draft wideouts much lower with a high success rate. Lineman are harder to draft lower on the elite side. I’d be okay with an elite corner at 7 as well.

Get proven OL in Free Agency is my call. I would love to get a special player like Brock Bowers or Rome Odunze if we do lose
out and get the 7th pick. This Draft has lots of talent at DT where we need to add a 3-tech and a NT for when Reader leaves
so we can go DT in the 2nd round and get a good one.

(12-01-2023, 07:33 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Get proven OL in Free Agency is my call. I would love to get a special player like Brock Bowers or Rome Odunze if we do lose
out and get the 7th pick. This Draft has lots of talent at DT where we need to add a 3-tech and a NT for when Reader leaves
so we can go DT in the 2nd round and get a good one.

RT is going to be very tough to fill in FA.  Jermaine Eluemanor is probably the #2 in FA behind Jonah, then a few guys north of 30 like Trent Brown and George Fant.

(12-01-2023, 08:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: RT is going to be very tough to fill in FA.  Jermaine Eluemanor is probably the #2 in FA behind Jonah, then a few guys north of 30 like Trent Brown and George Fant.

The Bengals have spent too much free agency money on OL in recent years. Yes, I get that the situation dictated that they needed to, but I would be really upset if they went to the free agency well for OL again. No need to go RT at the top of the draft anyway, as most dedicated RTs seem to be drafted in rounds 2-4 anyway.  If they don't agree to terms with Williams for RT going forward, I would hope that they would draft one day 2 and bring in one of those aging vets to bridge the gap.

(12-01-2023, 08:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: RT is going to be very tough to fill in FA.  Jermaine Eluemanor is probably the #2 in FA behind Jonah, then a few guys north of 30 like Trent Brown and George Fant.

Bring in Eluemanor then. I know it is easy for me to say, but Jonah probably wants to play LT and might be even spendier and hard
to keep. We need proven vets in FA especially if Pollack sticks around who sucks at developing young OL.

(12-01-2023, 08:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The Bengals have spent too much free agency money on OL in recent years. Yes, I get that the situation dictated that they needed to, but I would be really upset if they went to the free agency well for OL again. No need to go RT at the top of the draft anyway, as most dedicated RTs seem to be drafted in rounds 2-4 anyway.  If they don't agree to terms with Williams for RT going forward, I would hope that they would draft one day 2 and bring in one of those aging vets to bridge the gap.

You would be upset if we got a proven Vet OL in Free Agency Sunset? You trust Duke and Pollack to Draft quality OL?

I don't.

(12-02-2023, 05:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Bring in Eluemanor then. I know it is easy for me to say, but Jonah probably wants to play LT and might be even spendier and hard
to keep. We need proven vets in FA especially if Pollack sticks around who sucks at developing young OL.


You would be upset if we got a proven Vet OL in Free Agency Sunset? You trust Duke and Pollack to Draft quality OL?

I don't.

I think Eluemanor got benched this year if I recall correctly. I’m definitely not against a RT in Free Agency but this class is rough. It’s bad when Jonah is far and away the best option and we cannot afford a downgrade as the line is poor as is.

I agree with you Nate that I don’t trust Duke and Pollack. Their track record speaks for itself. But, I also don’t trust them to bring in Vets that are good scheme fits and that they set up for success. Everyone, no matter which way we seem to acquire them, seems to struggle/regress here. Which puts us in a bad spot. Looking at the two options this year I’d rather go with the draft than free agency. I have a lot more faith in those prospects. I really think several are the real deal and can help turn our o line luck around.

(12-02-2023, 09:57 PM)WhoDeyK Wrote: I think Eluemanor got benched this year if I recall correctly. I’m definitely not against a RT in Free Agency but this class is rough. It’s bad when Jonah is far and away the best option and we cannot afford a downgrade as the line is poor as is.

I agree with you Nate that I don’t trust Duke and Pollack. Their track record speaks for itself. But, I also don’t trust them to bring in Vets that are good scheme fits and that they set up for success. Everyone, no matter which way we seem to acquire them, seems to struggle/regress here. Which puts us in a bad spot. Looking at the two options this year I’d rather go with the draft than free agency. I have a lot more faith in those prospects. I really think several are the real deal and can help turn our o line luck around.

Completely understand, nice post as usual WhoDeyK. Bringing in a new OL coach that has a plan and knows his OL is 
essential and letting him pick his guys for his scheme is what needs to happen if we have to Draft our guys. Clearly Pollack
either doesn't have a say or he just doesn't have a good plan or eye for OL, same with Duke.

Alt, Latham or Fashanu seem like can't miss picks if that is way we go, but we need a new OL coach and a new approach
to drafting OL.

IF we end up drafting in the top 7-10, you have to take the best player on the board or move back. You can't force a pick just to fit a hole.

To me, there's no conceivable way we sign Tee. If he wanted to be here, he would have signed by now. I just don't think he's coming back. That gives us another 1st rounder to work with.

(12-04-2023, 05:23 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: IF we end up drafting in the top 7-10, you have to take the best player on the board or move back.  You can't force a pick just to fit a hole.

To me, there's no conceivable way we sign Tee.  If he wanted to be here, he would have signed by now.  I just don't think he's coming back.  That gives us another 1st rounder to work with.

Well said. This is why I am all for Rome Odunze this guy is special and would be the perfect Tee replacement.

The OL needs to be addressed of course, but you have to go BPA and WR will be a need with both Tee and Boyd leaving.

I like Iosivas and Chuck Sizzle but I don't necessarily know if they are the replacements for Tee and Boyd. Odunze would be 
much more of a sure thing IMO.

(12-02-2023, 05:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Bring in Eluemanor then. I know it is easy for me to say, but Jonah probably wants to play LT and might be even spendier and hard
to keep. We need proven vets in FA especially if Pollack sticks around who sucks at developing young OL.


You would be upset if we got a proven Vet OL in Free Agency Sunset? You trust Duke and Pollack to Draft quality OL?

I don't.

I was not upset when the team picked up Orlando Brown Jr.  I was speaking in terms of moving forward this coming year.  While the team has picked up quality OL via free agency, they still have the same situation on their hands as when they were rolling mostly with OL drafted by the team, they never reach their potential and some even fail to play up to levels established in college or with previous pro teams.

I'm a firm believe of the bodies that we have playing OL are just fine.  It's somewhere in the coaching and play calling that is causing them to have a rough go out there.  In other words they don't need to keep throwing money at the position group as much as they need to examine what is going on with the coaching and game planning of these guys.  I will add that having them play during preseason also seems like a pretty good idea at this point.

(12-04-2023, 05:36 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I was not upset when the team picked up Orlando Brown Jr.  I was speaking in terms of moving forward this coming year.  While the team has picked up quality OL via free agency, they still have the same situation on their hands as when they were rolling mostly with OL drafted by the team, they never reach their potential and some even fail to play up to levels established in college or with previous pro teams.

I'm a firm believe of the bodies that we have playing OL are just fine.  It's somewhere in the coaching and play calling that is causing them to have a rough go out there.  In other words they don't need to keep throwing money at the position group as much as they need to examine what is going on with the coaching and game planning of these guys.  I will add that having them play during preseason also seems like a pretty good idea at this point.

Okay cool Sunset. We definitely need a change at OL coach, Pollack seems to be the constant here. If we get a new OL coach that 
knows what he is doing I would be fine with Drafting OL as they might be able to be developed. Latham, Alt and Fashanu all would 
be more than fine with me in the first this year. I am still very open to FA's though, especially at RT. George Fant would be a good 
grab IMO.

The Bengals were all the way up to 13 and then we won again and are back to 17. It was a thrill to see many of our rookies play and play well. It gives me great hope. I'd still like to see more Iosivas and Jones. One step at a time, but we really need to see what we have unless the Higgins and Boyd decisions have already been made. The run defense really showed up against Jax. Murphy seems to be an established rotational piece who plays better on the left. OTOH the rest of the non-starters continue to be liabilities expect for Ossai who's clearly so deep in the doghouse that he doesn't get snaps. Our two LBs are having an off year, and Davis Gaither has been atrocious when he has seen the field.
So what does BPA look like? A bit of a reach at OT, unlikely a DL will drop, depth on both sides of the interior needed, possible prospects at WR or DB.