(12-03-2023, 11:35 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Mahomes has not produced a TD in the first half and recently against Denver no TD’s the whole game. But Andy Reid’s a genius. Well he got fired at Philly because of QB play. Amazing how that works. He’s 1-3 vs Zac

I like Zac.  I've talked to Zac on a couple of occasions, great guy.  But to claim he is on Andy Reid's tier is comical.  

As to the head-to-head, it is way more Andy vs Lou and Zac vs Spags.

Of course you get calls from inside the building daily so you have the scoop, but trust me they know Zac is not on Andy Reid's level, at least not yet. 

(12-03-2023, 11:38 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: See attached screenshots from google search. It happened exactly as I stated it.

can't see, nor do I need to see the screenshot. The 2008 New England Patriots did not make the playoffs. 

(12-04-2023, 12:00 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Quick which team’s offense scored more average points per game from 22-23 ? Cincy or SF? It’d be Cincy . In the playoffs 21-22 Who scored 23.28 points a game and who 20.0 a game? That’d also be Cincy not SF.

Pretty amazing that one team had Joe burrow and the other had garoppolo. Only 3 more points per game for burrow? Shannahan had kittle and deebo. Zac had Higgins, Chase, Boyd and Mixon.

This year San Fran has more weapons where I would say our skill positions are more of a push, with the bengals having the better qb. A fair comparison would be this years 9ers vs last years bengals (due to bengals injuries this year).

You can keep trying to poke holes in my argument but at least come straight out and say what you want to say. What main point do you disagree with and why? What is the argument you are trying to make? At least come out and say it.

My main points are:
the offense in too predictable (as evidenced by our performances in the playoffs and against the browns and ravens recently). As evidenced by the lack of separation of our receivers. Etc.

Because the offense is too predictable it makes things easier on the defense , harder on our players, and burrow takes more hits.

We can fix things by fixing the run/pass balance and developing an effective running game, calling plays at the right time/sequence to keep the defense off balance. A more balanced attack creates more space in the run and pass game. An off balance game makes you predictable. It’s like you’re standing straight up instead of with bent knees and a solid base. You’re easy to knock over. Or a better analogy is you are standing still vs on the run.

We are capable of being successful with a more balanced approach as evidenced by the 9ers game.

We’ve won with Taylor, but he’s also got a stacked roster and mvp caliber qb. I give him credit for building that roster. But, I’m not so sure he’s elite in terms of designing plays and game plans. I see elite OCs and head coaches that have done more with a lot less skill. Patriots, chiefs, etc. Zac is 0/3 on burrow’s Super Bowl window so far. And that’s what matters more than anything. He’ll have less skill in the future so he’s really going to have to prove he’s a coach that can elevate his players and not drag them down and prevent them from reaching their potential. I’m undecided right now and hope to see him prove himself.

(12-04-2023, 12:27 AM)bfine32 Wrote: can't see, nor do I need to see the screenshot. The 2008 New England Patriots did not make the playoffs. 

Thanks! Someone else pointed that out. 11-5 though. Not bad.

(12-04-2023, 12:25 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I like Zac.  I've talked to Zac on a couple of occasions, great guy.  But to claim he is on Andy Reid's tier is comical.  

As to the head-to-head, it is way more Andy vs Lou and Zac vs Spags.

Of course you get calls from inside the building daily so you have the scoop, but trust me they know Zac is not on Andy Reid's level, at least not yet. 

It’s great that Zac has done very well against some the top teams over the past few years (Chiefs, Bills, etc), but like you say, it only counts for so much. Does Soonerpeace think Kevin Stefanski is an infinitely better coach than Zac? Because he’s absolutely owned him for years now.

(12-04-2023, 12:25 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I like Zac.  I've talked to Zac on a couple of occasions, great guy.  But to claim he is on Andy Reid's tier is comical.  

As to the head-to-head, it is way more Andy vs Lou and Zac vs Spags.

Of course you get calls from inside the building daily so you have the scoop, but trust me they know Zac is not on Andy Reid's level, at least not yet. 

I’ll second this I also think Zac seems like a really nice guy. I’m just not convinced he’s an offensive genius. I can’t imagine what burrow would do if he were paired with shannahan, or Reid, or Belicheck with an oc of his choosing.

I have nothing against Zac. He’s done a lot for this organization. He got us into position to draft burrow and chase. He helped in drafting a great roster. He’s built a winning culture. I’m just not sure he’s a briilant offensive mind. I would love nothing more than for him to be a brilliant offensive mind. But too often I see his elite players struggling to find open space.

(12-04-2023, 12:22 AM)casear2727 Wrote: It was Chad Henne.  98 yard drive to win the game.

Thanks! I knew it started with an H. Good stuff!

Reid is a hell of a coach. Mahomes landed in the perfect system. They are still averaging 23.3 points per game with only kelce (who’s been injured a bit this year) as far as superstars. Pacheco is a solid back. But their wideouts are garbage.

Its my opinion that a defense and running game is more important to an elite qb than wideouts. I came to that conclusion from watching the patriots dynasty. The years they had great wideouts they came up short like us.

That said, even though the chiefs have a decent run game and a pretty darn good defense, I think this is the ravens year in the afc. I like their defense more. I like their run game more. In years past they fell shor in the playoffs, but it seems like they didn’t have the defense they have now. I’m thinking 9ers ravens Super Bowl but we’ll see.

(12-04-2023, 12:25 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I like Zac.  I've talked to Zac on a couple of occasions, great guy.  But to claim he is on Andy Reid's tier is comical.  

As to the head-to-head, it is way more Andy vs Lou and Zac vs Spags.

Of course you get calls from inside the building daily so you have the scoop, but trust me they know Zac is not on Andy Reid's level, at least not yet. 

Never said he was on Andy Reid’s level. But he’s 5-2 in the playoffs and 3-1 vs Andy. He’s certainly not got a large enough sample size.

(12-04-2023, 12:22 AM)casear2727 Wrote: It was Chad Henne.  98 yard drive to win the game.

And Chad had 50 NFL starts prior to joining KC. Browning has 1

(12-04-2023, 12:23 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: It’s not a good comparison. Jake Browning has zero nfl experience except 1 game last week. The Bengals weren’t playing well. They were starting to. But if the OL wasn’t suspect then I’d agree they should win a few games. A lot obviously depends on how the OL plays the rest of the season. The 49ers that scoring offense is worse than ours in 21-22 in the regular season and post season? Full stop the 49ers have a better roster but yes Joe makes us on their level. So the teams are wired differently. Their OL and DL much better. And KC? Their OL and DL both higher ranked. So teams are all wired differently.

Jake browning was Zac’s pick for a backup qb. It’s on him. He thinks he’s good enough, otherwise he would have brought someone else in over the offseason, in the preseason, or during the season. He publicly said he’s the guy and he believes in him. Elite coaches can make the playoffs with a healthy playoff caliber roster paired with a backup qb.

Maybe it’s not good to design a team in a top heavy way that is easy to knock over? Look at how the patriots, ravens, 9ers, Steelers, etc build teams. They don’t draft a lot of high pick wideouts. They draft defense, oline, qb. Don’t get me wrong it’s exciting to have a lot of skill on offense, but it’s rare that it wins you championships. You need a good run game and defense. Balance is important and this offseason is great opportunity to find it.

(12-04-2023, 01:06 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Jake browning was Zac’s pick for a backup qb. It’s on him. He thinks he’s good enough, otherwise he would have brought someone else in over the offseason, in the preseason, or during the season. He publicly said he’s the guy and he believes in him. Elite coaches can make the playoffs with a healthy playoff caliber roster paired with a backup qb.

Maybe it’s not good to design a team in a top heavy way that is easy to knock over? Look at how the patriots, ravens, 9ers, Steelers, etc build teams. They don’t draft a lot of high pick wideouts. They draft defense, oline, qb. Don’t get me wrong it’s exciting to have a lot of skill on offense, but it’s rare that it wins you championships. You need a good run game and defense. Balance is important and this offseason is great opportunity to find it.

I think they expected BA to return (like Perine and Vonn) and when he went to the 9ers, it caught them with their pants down.

Od wager that they pick up someone either in the draft or UDFA who fits the system and can learn from Burrow, to be halfway-competent.

(12-04-2023, 12:33 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Pretty amazing that one team had Joe burrow and the other had garoppolo. Only 3 more points per game for burrow? Shannahan had kittle and deebo. Zac had Higgins, Chase, Boyd and Mixon.

This year San Fran has more weapons where I would say our skill positions are more of a push, with the bengals having the better qb. A fair comparison would be this years 9ers vs last years bengals (due to bengals injuries this year).

You can keep trying to poke holes in my argument but at least come straight out and say what you want to say. What main point do you disagree with and why? What is the argument you are trying to make? At least come out and say it.

My main points are:
the offense in too predictable (as evidenced by our performances in the playoffs and against the browns and ravens recently). As evidenced by the lack of separation of our receivers. Etc.

Because the offense is too predictable it makes things easier on the defense , harder on our players, and burrow takes more hits.

We can fix things by fixing the run/pass balance and developing an effective running game, calling plays at the right time/sequence to keep the defense off balance. A more balanced attack creates more space in the run and pass game. An off balance game makes you predictable. It’s like you’re standing straight up instead of with bent knees and a solid base. You’re easy to knock over. Or a better analogy is you are standing still vs on the run.

We are capable of being successful with a more balanced approach as evidenced by the 9ers game.

We’ve won with Taylor, but he’s also got a stacked roster and mvp caliber qb. I give him credit for building that roster. But, I’m not so sure he’s elite in terms of designing plays and game plans. I see elite OCs and head coaches that have done more with a lot less skill. Patriots, chiefs, etc. Zac is 0/3 on burrow’s Super Bowl window so far. And that’s what matters more than anything. He’ll have less skill in the future so he’s really going to have to prove he’s a coach that can elevate his players and not drag them down and prevent them from reaching their potential. I’m undecided right now and hope to see him prove himself.

Comparing just the weapons is not the entire picture. I’m not proclaiming Zac to be Bill Walsh. But you have to admit both KC and SF better in the trenches. How does that factor? Joe has less time to throw and Zac can’t take advantage of our receivers often enough. The run game sucks so it makes us too one dimensional. And if SF & KC have better protection then their QB and OC have better opportunities. I’ve said the backup QB situation is on them all. The offensive line issues are pointing to Pollack more and more. Zac doesn’t have any more of a stacked roster than KC or SF. He’s better at WR but as you said it’s about a wash with SF and KC not quite as good. But like I said the trenches are every bit a part of the discussion of rosters and KC & SF better

(12-04-2023, 01:06 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: Jake browning was Zac’s pick for a backup qb. It’s on him. He thinks he’s good enough, otherwise he would have brought someone else in over the offseason, in the preseason, or during the season. He publicly said he’s the guy and he believes in him. Elite coaches can make the playoffs with a healthy playoff caliber roster paired with a backup qb.

Maybe it’s not good to design a team in a top heavy way that is easy to knock over? Look at how the patriots, ravens, 9ers, Steelers, etc build teams. They don’t draft a lot of high pick wideouts. They draft defense, oline, qb. Don’t get me wrong it’s exciting to have a lot of skill on offense, but it’s rare that it wins you championships. You need a good run game and defense. Balance is important and this offseason is great opportunity to find it.

I’ve said numerous times on this thread and others previously the backup QB is indeed on Zac & Brian. I think it was short sighted. But they dug a hole with Joey B playing when he shouldn’t have and if they’d had a better backup maybe it’s different. But expecting Browning to go win us a bunch of games isn’t realistic.

(12-04-2023, 01:11 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I think they expected BA to return (like Perine and Vonn) and when he went to the 9ers, it caught them with their pants down.

Od wager that they pick up someone either in the draft or UDFA who fits the system and can learn from Burrow, to be halfway-competent.

Honestly, the team was ready to move on from Brandon Allen. They really wanted Cooper Rush, but he opted to go back to the Cowboys. 

I believe Allen's name got thrown around during TC when the team realized that Browning and Siemian were not good. There was a thought that the team would bring him back, but when Trey Lance got traded, that idea was squashed.

(12-04-2023, 01:12 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Comparing just the weapons is not the entire picture. I’m not proclaiming Zac to be Bill Walsh. But you have to admit both KC and SF better in the trenches. How does that factor? Joe has less time to throw and Zac can’t take advantage of our receivers often enough. The run game sucks so it makes us too one dimensional. And if SF & KC have better protection then their QB and OC have better opportunities. I’ve said the backup QB situation is on them all. The offensive line issues are pointing to Pollack more and more. Zac doesn’t have any more of a stacked roster than KC or SF. He’s better at WR but as you said it’s about a wash with SF and KC not quite as good. But like I said the trenches are every bit a part of the discussion of rosters and KC & SF better

I researched a lot of oline rankings this offseason and I kept seeing the 9ers as middle of the pack as far as evaluating the talent. We were ranked higher than them for talenton a lot of the lists. As far as the players we have I think we should be better than we are. You can blame pollack but part of it is designing plays that are likely to be successful. Shannahan is good at that and it makes the players better.

I think talent wise our oline personnel should be even with KC and the 9ers this year (on paper). We haven’t gotten the most out of our players and my argument is that we haven’t gotten the most out of burrow, Mixon, Chase, or Higgins in their time here.

To me that all falls back on the coaching. You can blame the oline coach if you want but in my opinion we would be an elite offense if we had a Shannahan or an Andy Reid or some type of elite OC/head coach.

When it’s difficult for your elite players to execute the play that is called consistently that falls back on coaching. We need to coach better, with more balance and deception.

Shannahan seems to get it done no matter what qb he has and it’s because of the play design primarily. When you add good players and coach them well you get 40 point games like we saw today.

Our blowouts are usually two touchdown wins, not 20-30 point wins like we’ve seen from the 9ers and dolphins this year.

(12-04-2023, 12:25 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I like Zac.  I've talked to Zac on a couple of occasions, great guy.  But to claim he is on Andy Reid's tier is comical.  

As to the head-to-head, it is way more Andy vs Lou and Zac vs Spags.

Of course you get calls from inside the building daily so you have the scoop, but trust me they know Zac is not on Andy Reid's level, at least not yet. 

Glad you brought that up. Zac’s adjustments has us up 61-30 the second half vs Spags.

(12-04-2023, 02:38 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I researched a lot of oline rankings this offseason and I kept seeing the 9ers as middle of the pack as far as evaluating the talent. We were ranked higher than them for talenton a lot of the lists. As far as the players we have I think we should be better than we are. You can blame pollack but part of it is designing plays that are likely to be successful. Shannahan is good at that and it makes the players better.

I think talent wise our oline personnel should be even with KC and the 9ers this year (on paper). We haven’t gotten the most out of our players and my argument is that we haven’t gotten the most out of burrow, Mixon, Chase, or Higgins in their time here.

To me that all falls back on the coaching. You can blame the oline coach if you want but in my opinion we would be an elite offense if we had a Shannahan or an Andy Reid or some type of elite OC/head coach.

When it’s difficult for your elite players to execute the play that is called consistently that falls back on coaching. We need to coach better, with more balance and deception.

Shannahan seems to get it done no matter what qb he has and it’s because of the play design primarily. When you add good players and coach them well you get 40 point games like we saw today.

Our blowouts are usually two touchdown wins, not 20-30 point wins like we’ve seen from the 9ers and dolphins this year.

Just a few notes
KC PFF final OL rankings 2022 #4
Cincy #28
SF #7 (#5 Pass) and the best in the entire league Trent Williams at LT. Give Jake Browning that not #28 then maybe he’s not so bad and your comments about SF would resonate. Of course their DL going into the season PFF had #2. So remember my comments that SF’s roster construction was different? Just trying to compare Joe’s weapons to determine how good we are doesn’t tell the whole story.

You said this…

We are capable of being successful with a more balanced approach as evidenced by the 9ers game.

We’ve won with Taylor, but he’s also got a stacked roster and mvp caliber qb.
____

Of course we’d be better with a more balanced offense but Zac doesn’t have a magic wand to get our OL elite like SF. I just get tired of the mantra Zac gets all the blame when things fail and no credit when they succeed. I realize some here don’t share that but there’s not enough of them.

Not at all! He should of been fired pre-Burrow draft..then we wouldn't be stuck with this garbage. Unless the man gives up playcalling duties we will never win a Lombardi.

(12-04-2023, 10:45 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Glad you brought that up. Zac’s adjustments has us up 61-30 the second half vs Spags.

And again, that doesnt put Zac at Andy Reid's level.    I guess you think Stefanski is tiers above Zac since he has owned him?

(12-04-2023, 12:36 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It’s great that Zac has done very well against some the top teams over the past few years (Chiefs, Bills, etc), but like you say, it only counts for so much. Does Soonerpeace think Kevin Stefanski is an infinitely better coach than Zac? Because he’s absolutely owned him for years now.

No I think Cleveland is a bad matchup for us. But with Zac 10-5 from ‘21-‘23 vs SF. KC, Bills, and Balt is a much better sample size.