In my mind, weak as it is. We simply have to get better at running the ball. I'm sure a giant part of that is having a better RB. I'm not saying it has to become the focus of our O. But we have to get better production when we do run.

I remember thinking back early in the season. Why don't we add some old fashioned draws into the playbook?

It sure seems ZT doesn't care about the run but perhaps it's as much JB as it is Zac? I sure hope someone can talk him into more under center runs and play action.

Because to me that's our biggest issue. Opposing D's know they don't have to worry about our run game.

(12-02-2023, 09:19 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: There was all this talk when Zac came in as coach of being ‘multiple’ and deceptive. On offense we are predictable. That needs to change.

When you look at the best offenses in the league they don't change their scheme every week.  Instead they do something well and force defenses to try and stop them.

Last year we threw the ball 63% of the time and Zac was a brilliant coach.  This year we throw it 65% of the time and he is clueless?  That just doesn't make sense to me.  We have even changed it up this year with Chase moving around a lot more and lining up in the slot.

(12-03-2023, 12:36 PM)Bing Ghuls Wrote: When you look at the best offenses in the league they don't change their scheme every week.  Instead they do something well and force defenses to try and stop them.

Last year we threw the ball 63% of the time and Zac was a brilliant coach.  This year we throw it 65% of the time and he is clueless?  That just doesn't make sense to me.  We have even changed it up this year with Chase moving around a lot more and lining up in the slot.

Bottom line is results. Teams have adjusted. That’s what happens. You need to continually evolve your scheme or it becomes predictable. I’m not saying they aren’t evolving, because they have to be to some extent. But the results say they aren’t evolving their scheme enough.

There are so many games where the offense just disappears for multiple series at a time because they are too predictable. Our division opponents know us best and I’m looking at the ravens playoff game last year where we couldn’t do anything on offense. Predictability on offense is a death sentence.

(12-03-2023, 11:04 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: In my mind, weak as it is. We simply have to get better at running the ball. I'm sure a giant part of that is having a better RB. I'm not saying it has to become the focus of our O. But we have to get better production when we do run.

I remember thinking back early in the season. Why don't we add some old fashioned draws into the playbook?

It sure seems ZT doesn't care about the run but perhaps it's as much JB as it is Zac? I sure hope someone can talk him into more under center runs and play action.

Because to me that's our biggest issue. Opposing D's know they don't have to worry about our run game.

You and I have had this discussion before, and the message never changes.  Running the ball effectively begins with having a mind set and making the assertion 'we are going to run the ball'.  Once a team makes that resolution, the rest sort of takes care of itself.  Truth be told, most OL would rather run block and impose their will upon the defense.  Running backs get a 'stop me if you can' attitude.  The offense can now throw because they want to, rather than because that's the only thing that they can do.


It may be a bit of a stretch to hope for Zac and Joe to adapt the mentality of being a ball control offense, but if they want to win championships that may be what it takes.  Just look at all of the years John Elway took his teams close to he top by being pass first, and then when he had a coach that embraced the rushing offense he was able to lead the Broncos to Championships.

(12-03-2023, 11:04 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: In my mind, weak as it is. We simply have to get better at running the ball. I'm sure a giant part of that is having a better RB. I'm not saying it has to become the focus of our O. But we have to get better production when we do run.

I remember thinking back early in the season. Why don't we add some old fashioned draws into the playbook?

It sure seems ZT doesn't care about the run but perhaps it's as much JB as it is Zac? I sure hope someone can talk him into more under center runs and play action.

Because to me that's our biggest issue. Opposing D's know they don't have to worry about our run game.

Absolutely agree. It's part Mixon, and part line execution... that's been shown in numerous clips on Twitter. I see what they are trying to do and what they want, execution is just not there. So, to me, you gotta change up your running philosophy, or you gotta get these guys to execute. That is on the coaches.

(12-04-2023, 09:21 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You and I have had this discussion before, and the message never changes.  Running the ball effectively begins with having a mind set and making the assertion 'we are going to run the ball'.  Once a team makes that resolution, the rest sort of takes care of itself.  Truth be told, most OL would rather run block and impose their will upon the defense.  Running backs get a 'stop me if you can' attitude.  The offense can now throw because they want to, rather than because that's the only thing that they can do.


It may be a bit of a stretch to hope for Zac and Joe to adapt the mentality of being a ball control offense, but if they want to win championships that may be what it takes.  Just look at all of the years John Elway took his teams close to he top by being pass first, and then when he had a coach that embraced the rushing offense he was able to lead the Broncos to Championships.

I think that's a giant part of it !!

Zac and Joe it seems as well don't want to embrace the running game...at all. And I feel that's a giant mistake. I fully understand this is a passing oriented team, and league. And we're going to live and die through Joe Burrow's passing the ball.

But in my opinion we throw the run out the window way to early and often. In the first qtr. of most games we run it some. Then it just goes down fast from there. I don't have any stats on this but I'd venture to say I'm not going out to far on a limb to state we run the ball the least in the league in the 2nd half of games.

I know game score and situation dictate this to a degree. But that hasn't always been the case. How many times in the ZT era have we closed out a game being able to run the ball? Run the clock out? Basically speaking we can't. And that's because of the bolded statement I believe, in lage part anyways.

We can't pick up those 3rd and two's vs. most teams. We don't/can't run it inside the red zone. Again vs. most teams. And it hurts our ability to score TD's in the red zone. Opposing D's don't have to account for us running the ball.

I just hope next season Zac and Joe will alter the gameplan to include "some" running scheme's..

It doesn't really matter if the offensive identity is driven more by Zac or Burrow. It lays eggs for at least a quarter, leaves Burrow open for hits, and is a Joey Boboo away from being one of the worst offenses in football.

Someone needs to look themselves in the mirror and realize this before it's too late. We're not winning a SB with it, and with FA departures, it's projected to get even worse.

I will never understand, nor accept the whole "Turning his back to the defense" argument for going under center. You can drop back while still looking at the defense! Hell, you can still PLAY ACTION while looking at the defense!

"They cannot get heavy with multiple tight ends because Tanner Hudson, Mitchell Wilcox, Irv Smith, and every wide receiver lacks the ability to block. "

HOW THE HELL DOES ANY PLAYER MAKE IT TO THE NFL while "lacking the ability to block????"

(12-04-2023, 12:02 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I think that's a giant part of it !!

Zac and Joe it seems as well don't want to embrace the running game...at all. And I feel that's a giant mistake. I fully understand this is a passing oriented team, and league. And we're going to live and die through Joe Burrow's passing the ball.

Same here, I have always believed that a strong team should run a balanced offense.  Perhaps not strictly 50/50 in the era of big passing, but at least enough to force defenses to respect and be always aware of the threat of a running play.  I don't know what that number might be 30%, 35-40%?  But whatever it is, it has to be enough to demonstrate that they are willing and will run repeatedly with success if they want to.

(12-04-2023, 01:36 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Same here, I have always believed that a strong team should run a balanced offense.  Perhaps not strictly 50/50 in the era of big passing, but at least enough to force defenses to respect and be always aware of the threat of a running play.  I don't know what that number might be 30%, 35-40%?  But whatever it is, it has to be enough to demonstrate that they are willing and will run repeatedly with success if they want to.

Yes!

I don't know ? 38% of plays be runs ? on average

But there are all sorts of issues/problems that crop up in season where the running game is needed to "step up", and by and large we don't possess that chip.

Injuries to WR's, wind blowing 40 MPH in some outside venue, Very cold and raining late in season, the classic closing out a game up by 12 with 10 minutes to go - burning clock. Playing a backup QB. And save a handful of games over last 3 years, we can't do it.

We're right on the cusp if not fully on it? of being one dimensional and it hurts.

(12-04-2023, 12:31 PM)Tomkat Wrote: I will never understand, nor accept the whole "Turning his back to the defense" argument for going under center.  You can drop back while still looking at the defense!  Hell, you can still PLAY ACTION while looking at the defense!

Yes, I'm not totally sure I understand that either ??

(12-04-2023, 02:52 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yes!

I don't know ? 38% of plays be runs ? on average

We're right on the cusp if not fully on it? of being one dimensional and it hurts.

The Bengals ARE one-dimensional. Going pass-heavy MIGHT make sense with Joe Burrow under center but for Jake Browning to do this takes a huge stretch of the imagination. To my mind the best way to become more explosive on offense is to run the ball more to set up the pass.

(12-04-2023, 09:21 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote:  Running the ball effectively begins with having a mind set and making the assertion 'we are going to run the ball'.  Once a team makes that resolution, the rest sort of takes care of itself. 

I don't believe this is true at all.  From what I see talent and coaching make a good running team.  I can't believe that we can't run the ball just because our O-line has commitment issues.

And I have never seen a team with a weak run game get better just by running the ball more.  In fact they usually get worse because the defense will start playing the run more and moving a safety up in the box.

(12-04-2023, 02:52 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: We're right on the cusp if not fully on it? of being one dimensional and it hurts.

We threw the ball 62% of the time last year, and our offense was very good.

We throw the ball 65% of the time this year, and we are not good.

It is not being "one-dimensional".  It is poor execution.

(12-04-2023, 06:04 PM)Bing Ghuls Wrote: I don't believe this is true at all.  From what I see talent and coaching make a good running team.  I can't believe that we can't run the ball just because our O-line has commitment issues.

And I have never seen a team with a weak run game get better just by running the ball more.  In fact they usually get worse because the defense will start playing the run more and moving a safety up in the box.

I don't believe just running the ball more is what peeps are saying.

I'm sure you've been a part of something in life when you can tell your friends, teachers, team, peers, family or whatever just don't have their heart in whatever is going on. They're just going through the motions and can't wait until it's over. And it's obvious.

Myself and others believe this is at least a part of what's going on with the Bengals. ZT and Co. likely including Joe Burrow to one degree or another look at the run game as a total side show, pretty much a waste of time. "They" don't put any urgency to embrace it, make it work, use it to advantage etc. And the team knows it.

And that's one of the bigger reasons our run game sucks way more often than not. Their hearts just aren't in it.

(12-04-2023, 06:16 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Myself and others believe this is at least a part of what's going on with the Bengals. ZT and Co. likely including Joe Burrow to one degree or another look at the run game as a total side show, pretty much a waste of time. "They" don't put any urgency to embrace it, make it work, use it to advantage etc. And the team knows it.

And that's one of the bigger reasons our run game sucks way more often than not. Their hearts just aren't in it.

No offense, but this is just something you made up in your head.  You could not possibly have any evidence to back up this claim.

Raiders are running the ball 23.8 times per game while Commanders run it 21.9. But Commanders are #4 in the league in yards per carry (4.6) while Raiders are 32nd (3.5).  Running the ball more does not make a bad run game any better.

(12-04-2023, 06:31 PM)Bing Ghuls Wrote: Running the ball more does not make a bad run game any better.

…but it does make the passing game better. If there’s even a small chance of running the ball it will give the defense pause. The linebackers and secondary will take longer to react.

(12-04-2023, 06:31 PM)Bing Ghuls Wrote: No offense, but this is just something you made up in your head.  You could not possibly have any evidence to back up this claim.

Raiders are running the ball 23.8 times per game while Commanders run it 21.9. But Commanders are #4 in the league in yards per carry (4.6) while Raiders are 32nd (3.5).  Running the ball more does not make a bad run game any better.

Hey Fred, long time no talk

(12-04-2023, 08:28 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Hey Fred, long time no talk