(12-06-2023, 11:31 AM)jj22 Wrote: I agree with this. Eventually you will wear down the defense in the 4th quarter and those runs will start to break through. Can't just give up after the first 2 quarters if you aren't averaging 4.5. Backs like Mixon (used to be) get stronger as the game goes on.

Efficiency is the name of the game. We absolutely know the OL sucks and has. Yet points per play we were #8 in both ‘21 & ‘22.

I thought this was going to be a picture of Ja’Marr that says “I’m always open” underneath it.

Is this a chicken and egg situation?

(12-06-2023, 11:31 AM)jj22 Wrote: I agree with this. Eventually you will wear down the defense in the 4th quarter and those runs will start to break through. Can't just give up after the first 2 quarters if you aren't averaging 4.5. Backs like Mixon (used to be) get stronger as the game goes on.

Mixon, historically, gets worse as the game goes on. His best quarter is the second quarter. His worst quarter is overtime, where he averages only 2.4 yards per carry. His second worst quarter is the 4th quarter, where he averages 3.7 yards per carry. 

(12-06-2023, 12:05 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: The Bengals have scored 30 or more points on game days where I eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich.

You need stock in Jif and Smuckers then, cause we're gonna need you to be eating a lot of those PB&J sammiches from here on out son.

(12-06-2023, 12:27 PM)jason Wrote: Is this a chicken and egg situation?

Or a Chase Brown and Mixon situation? 

Chase Brown had a 31 yard run in 1 game of play and averaged 6.8ypc. 
Mixons longest run all year is 22 yards and vs the Jags he averaged 3.6 ypc. 

He still makes good plays but he needs to lose more carries. I'd like to imagine a defense will play the run different when knowing regardless of blown tackles/missed lanes the RB is only going to get 20 yards vs knowing if you do it could be a TD or 40+ yard run. 

(12-06-2023, 11:31 AM)jj22 Wrote: I agree with this. Eventually you will wear down the defense in the 4th quarter and those runs will start to break through. Can't just give up after the first 2 quarters if you aren't averaging 4.5. Backs like Mixon (used to be) get stronger as the game goes on.

This. Isn't. The. 70s.

Wearing down defenses isn't common anymore, unless the oline is beating the shit out of the dline each play, but with dline rotations now, it almost never happens.

Some of our fans need to modernise with the game itself.

(12-06-2023, 04:28 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Nah, you are remembering wrong. 

Bratkowski was the "run run pass" offense. Taylor is the "run pass pass" offense.

That one season it was 'run, run, shuttle pass, punt'. 

I like it when they bring in Cody Ford and Sample.Go heavy.Do whatever it takes to establish a successful rushing attack so Browning can do his thing.

(12-06-2023, 11:37 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think people are getting a little too bent out of shape with the eight carries line. Cincinnati only ran 40 plays, excluding a kneel at the half. They ran the ball 20% of the time, a notable deviation from their standard 34% of the time. In order to get down into that range, you would bump Mixon's carries from eight to 13. The defense has to account for the possibility of running the ball if a RB is on the field. They can't just disregard him, even if the team isn't running the ball often. Those run fits still have to be played. It's why RPOs and playaction just work, whether your running game is performing well or not. 

I'm not saying the numbers needed to be wildly different, it's not like Mixon was running it well. But it seems absolutely crazy to me to see your franchise QB go down... the backup has his first start... and we run the ball 14% LESS than we were on average with Joe Burrow back there! Sprinkle a few more runs in there.. it's not like Browning was ripping the Steelers up through the air.

Of course the defence can't just sell out on the run completely... but if the opposing team is running the ball 20% of the time, then the defensive priorities will be for the pass. The players on the field will naturally be thinking about the next pass play to defend... as they aren't seeing us run the ball.

Ultimately, a very good duty playcalling the game a week later and it was a game where the run game did it's part as well. I just think you help Browning out with trying to establish any semblance of a run game, 8 plays in 40 certainly isn't doing so.

(12-06-2023, 12:55 PM)Wyche Wrote: You need stock in Jif and Smuckers then, cause we're gonna need you to be eating a lot of those PB&J sammiches from here on out son.

Bulking SZN. 

(12-05-2023, 10:25 PM)Tomkat Wrote:

THANK YOU!  Been saying it all year.  I don't care how great your WR and QB are, you need balance.

(12-06-2023, 12:21 AM)Wyche Wrote: As long as you're not creating a lot of 3rd and longs because you're getting stonewalled. And I've seen my fill of getting stonewalled.

For sure.

(12-06-2023, 12:47 AM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: He just came back off IR so I expect to see a whole lot more of him.  He was in beast mode last night, and we need to keep that train rolling.

Yes we do need to keep that Chase Brown train rolling. It was refreshing seeing a Bengal RB hit holes at full speed without hesitation.

(12-06-2023, 04:28 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Nah, you are remembering wrong. 

Bratkowski was the "run run pass" offense. Taylor is the "run pass pass" offense.

Andy Dalton's first career game with Zac Taylor, he threw 51 times and they ran it 14 times despite never being down by more than 4 and having a lead 3 different times in the game. Dalton threw 50+ passes 3 times in 13 games that year despite only doing it 3 times in the 120 previous games he played.

I love it when people try to blame Zac's offense on Burrow opting out of runs, but Zac's literally who he has always been, even pre-Burrow. In 2016 with UC he had Hayden Moore, Gunner Kiel, and Ross Trail throw it 452 times in 12 games (almost 38 passes per game). Meanwhile their leading rusher averaging 4.7 yards per carry on just 159 carries and he had a backup RB who averaged 7.4ypc the year before and ended up in the NFL (still is there, Mike Boone). Inherited the 37th scoring offense and in his only year he turned them into the 123rd out of 128.

At some point you just need to accept the scorpion is the scorpion. Can't help it, it's in his nature.

Thanks for Zac's history TLL. That just won't cut it, not in college and especially not in the NFL. You have to have balance.

(12-06-2023, 05:10 AM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote: Agree. You need some balance on offense, and even if you're not running the ball well you still have to make the defence account for the possibility you might be running the ball. Nobody is saying give Joe Mixon 30 carries if he's going 2 YPC. But you certainly should run it more than the 8 times we managed the other week.

As KillerGoose said, we did only have around 40 snaps on Offense against the stealers, but still 8 times is still low.

(12-06-2023, 02:26 PM)TheFan Wrote: Or a Chase Brown and Mixon situation? 

Chase Brown had a 31 yard run in 1 game of play and averaged 6.8ypc. 
Mixons longest run all year is 22 yards and vs the Jags he averaged 3.6 ypc. 

He still makes good plays but he needs to lose more carries. I'd like to imagine a defense will play the run different when knowing regardless of blown tackles/missed lanes the RB is only going to get 20 yards vs knowing if you do it could be a TD or 40+ yard run. 

I think using Chase Brown more as a runner and Mixon more as a pass catcher would really help the Offense. What is nice about
Brown is he can catch as well so it wouldn't have to be predictable either, it is just Mixon is a good Receiver especially on screens 
and such.

(12-06-2023, 12:34 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Mixon, historically, gets worse as the game goes on. His best quarter is the second quarter. His worst quarter is overtime, where he averages only 2.4 yards per carry. His second worst quarter is the 4th quarter, where he averages 3.7 yards per carry. 

This is a situation where I think you can't completely trust the stats. In the 4th qtr you can find yourselves in situations where you are trying to run out the clock or set up a field goal. The other team knows your running and are selling out to stop you.

(12-06-2023, 07:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I think using Chase Brown more as a runner and Mixon more as a pass catcher would really help the Offense. What is nice about
Brown is he can catch as well so it wouldn't have to be predictable either, it is just Mixon is a good Receiver especially on screens 
and such.

I'm glad Brown got on the field and I'm even happier he had success. But we do need to see a bit more of it. He obviously had the explosive plays but he also had 2 or 3 negative gains and that is something Mixon rarely does. I would personally keep Mixon as the main back. But that's not saying Brown doesn't deserve to continue to get more touches. I would also like to see him get some targets.

(12-06-2023, 07:33 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: This is a situation where I think you can't completely trust the stats. In the 4th qtr you can find yourselves in situations where you are trying to run out the clock or set up a field goal. The other team knows your running and are selling out to stop you.

Sure, this is definitely a thing. Even accounting for that, though, the data doesn't paint a picture of getting stronger as the game goes on. Here is full breakdown...

1st Quarter - 4.15 yards per carry
2nd Quarter - 4.21 yards per carry
3rd Quarter - 4.18 yards per carry
4th Quarter - 3.78 yards per carry
OT - 2.41 yards per carry

The picture it paints is Mixon staying roughly the same until the 4th quarter where his efficiency tanks. If you look at the league as a whole over the last 10 years, you see the following...

1st Quarter - 4.24 yards per carry

2nd Quarter - 4.27 yards per carry
3rd Quarter - 4.40 yards per carry
4th Quarter - 3.99 yards per carry
OT - 4.40 yards per carry

Some similarities. Both Mixon and the rest of the league lose substantial efficiency in the 4th, likely due to what you said. However, Mixon's YPC is slightly worse in the 3rd quarter in comparison to the rest of the league where there is a pretty sharp jump. The rest of the league also performs very well in OT where Mixon is at his worst. I don't put much stock into this, though, because he has so few OT carries. 

The story always goes back to Mixon is not a dynamic runner. He doesn't have the toolset to generate yardage for himself. He isn't fast enough, quick enough, or strong enough to consistently break tackles. He is consistently towards the bottom of the league in breaking tackles. This translates to a pretty flat performance throughout the game. He gets you what the OL gives him. 

(12-06-2023, 08:10 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Sure, this is definitely a thing. Even accounting for that, though, the data doesn't paint a picture of getting stronger as the game goes on. Here is full breakdown...

1st Quarter - 4.15 yards per carry
2nd Quarter - 4.21 yards per carry
3rd Quarter - 4.18 yards per carry
4th Quarter - 3.78 yards per carry
OT - 2.41 yards per carry

The picture it paints is Mixon staying roughly the same until the 4th quarter where his efficiency tanks. If you look at the league as a whole over the last 10 years, you see the following...

1st Quarter - 4.24 yards per carry

2nd Quarter - 4.27 yards per carry
3rd Quarter - 4.40 yards per carry
4th Quarter - 3.99 yards per carry
OT - 4.40 yards per carry

Some similarities. Both Mixon and the rest of the league lose substantial efficiency in the 4th, likely due to what you said. However, Mixon's YPC is slightly worse in the 3rd quarter in comparison to the rest of the league where there is a pretty sharp jump. The rest of the league also performs very well in OT where Mixon is at his worst. I don't put much stock into this, though, because he has so few OT carries. 

The story always goes back to Mixon is not a dynamic runner. He doesn't have the toolset to generate yardage for himself. He isn't fast enough, quick enough, or strong enough to consistently break tackles. He is consistently towards the bottom of the league in breaking tackles. This translates to a pretty flat performance throughout the game. He gets you what the OL gives him. 

Well I wasn't making the point that he gets stronger. I know that's what you guys were talking about. I was just simply pointing out I thought there were underlying situations to cause the dip in the 4th qtr. I think Mixon is more than strong enough. But I agree Mixon doesn't have elite quickness and speed  which obviously hurts his YPC overall. 

(12-05-2023, 10:50 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yes, even if you aren't averaging good YPC running the ball can still be beneficial.

Think about it from the OL perspective.  If your QB is sitting in the shotgun all the time you never get the chance to be in attack mode.  You are always stepping back at the snap to essentially try to form a pocket.  

It's no wonder they can't consistently run the ball, they're always at a disadvantage.  

Hopefully Burrow will realize this while watching for the rest of the season and be more willing to play from center.  It will prolong his career also.

(12-05-2023, 10:38 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Keep running no matter what.  If the defense knows a pass is coming they’ll sit in zone coverage and pick balls out of the air all day. If a run play is even possible it gives the defense pause and causes the secondary to hesitate briefly.  That’s why delayed draw plays work so well.

exactly