(12-21-2023, 09:16 AM)Sled21 Wrote: He knows he's not going to the HOF, so he just wants on the ROH. That's all this is.

I’m sure he cries himself to sleep every night worrying about being in the Bengals RoH while he’s looking at his Super Bowl ring.

(12-20-2023, 10:36 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think there's a case to be made for Chase being better but this is definitely some recency bias. Chad was an ironman and only missed five games due to injury in his 10 seasons in Cincinnati. He played in 96% of games available to him. Chase still has a long way to go in his career, but he has had a shaky start with injuries so far. He has only played in 84% thus far and is set to miss more this season. Chad also did it in a notoriously more physical era. I think it is hard to argue that Chase "blows the doors off Chad" when it comes to toughness. 

I would also claim Chad on route running, but this is a bit of a complex topic that we don't have all the information on because what they do can be dependent on how the defense plays them I.E. man vs. cover 2/quarters/quarters-half etc. Chase is more physical than Chad was, but Chad was exceptionally quick and savvy in getting open. This, I think was Chad's best trait along with his body control, which I would also give to Chad. Throwing an out route to Chad enabled you to throw it at one of the coaches on the bench and it was still a good ball for him with how he could lay out for a catch. Trying to go much deeper, I have no idea. When these guys are running option routes, who is consistently running the correct one for the defense they are seeing? Shit if I know. 

I think Chase cleanly wins when it comes to after the catch ability, contested catches, and his ability to make plays deep. This kind of goes hand-in-hand with his contested catches ability. Chase is so savvy with how he can get away with a push off to create separation right as the ball is arriving. I think he is also a more dynamic athlete than Chad was so once he gets the ball in his hands he is more dangerous in space. Both of them have/had good hands. The easiest thing to do would be to compare dropped passes but there aren't any publicly available resources to use for Chad's career. Chase has a 4.1% drop percentage this year, and a little over 6% for his career (21 drops in three seasons). He is in the upper 1/4 of the league this year, and his career percentage is roughly NFL average.

Chad was a dude, just like Chase is. He has multiple first team AP selections for a reason in a time where he was competing against some all-time greats. Chase very well could be better, but he isn't blowing the doors off him IMO. 

Yes, and Chad was the best of his time. I'm not sure Chase is better than Jefferson. (It's close) But Chad, like you said, played in an era where you could blow up receivers. He played under a different set of rules.

(12-20-2023, 05:19 PM)Sled21 Wrote: *&#$ Corey Dillon coming around now acting like he's still part of the family. The man left throwing his equipment into the stands and badmouthed the Bengals for decades. Now that they're winning, he wants to be part of it again. Child please, go away.

Wow. 

(12-20-2023, 06:01 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Chase isn't in front of Chad...yet. 

Imagine Chase as full time slot with Chad and Pickens/Isaac on the outsides 

(12-21-2023, 02:26 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I did a deep dive a few years ago and not only was Neal overrated, but the HBs he blocked for either did as well or BETTER without him blocking for them.

He also was not a great runner (though he had the one, great, fluke season with... NO, IIRC) and while he had soft hands, he wasn't the best pass catcher either.

Everyone seems to have forgotten about Alstott when talking about FBs, but they remember Neal.


Lol lm having trouble copying/pasting my tweet, so I'll post it tomorrow

You asked, here it is!

QB: Burrow (let's be realistic: he doesn't have the numbers that KA does, but he's our QB1)
RB: CD
FB: Ickey
WR: Chase (same as Burrow), Chad, AJ
TE: Bob Trumpy, Tony McGee
OT: Munoz, Willie
OG: Boling, Montoya
C: Kozerski/Brilz (take your pick)

DE: Hendrickson, Dunlap (Edwards just not as good)
DT: Geno, Krumrie, Mike Reid
LB: Reggie Williams, Jim LeClair
CB: Riley, Parrish, Hall
FS: Tommy Casanova, Nelson
SS: Fulcher, Vonn Bell
K: Evan
P: McInally
LS: CLark Harris

(12-21-2023, 09:14 AM)Sled21 Wrote: That's perfectly fine, I'm not looking for support. These are MY feelings towards him.

I know you're not, I wrote that in case you get dunked on by everyone, so to expect backlash.

QB- Burrow, Anderson
RB- Dillon, Mixon, James Brooks
FB- Jermey Johnson
TE- Holman, Trumpy, Reggie Kelly
Wr- Chase, 85, Green, Curtis, Pickens
OT-Munoz, Anderson,
G- Max M, Eric Steinbech
C- Rich Braham

3T- Geno, Wilkerson,
NT- Krumrie, Reader
EDGE- Coy Bacon, Hendrickson, Dunlap
MLB-, B Simmons, Bill Bergy
OLB- Burfict, Spikes
CB- Riley, Parrish, Joseph, Hall
NB- Hilton
FS- Bates, Illoka
SS- Fulcher, Nelson

LS- Clark Harris
P- Huber
K-McPherson

(12-20-2023, 05:40 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: 1. Neal not only is one of the most overrated players in the modern era, we had (not in the order below):

- Jeremi
- Derrick Fenner
- Pete Johnson
- ICKEY ******* WOODS

All on this team, all infinitely better than Neal could ever have dreamt to be.

2. Who's R. Cook?

3. Pelfrey isn't even top 5 of best Ks in team history

Graham
Evan (the best, of course)
Fat Randy (as much as we hate him, he was better)
Breech (ugh)
Nuge'

Gotta have Ickey on there....

(12-21-2023, 10:22 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: You asked, here it is!

QB: Burrow (let's be realistic: he doesn't have the numbers that KA does, but he's our QB1)
RB: CD
FB: Ickey
WR: Chase (same as Burrow), Chad, AJ
TE: Bob Trumpy, Tony McGee
OT: Munoz, Willie
OG: Boling, Montoya
C: Kozerski/Brilz (take your pick)

DE: Hendrickson, Dunlap (Edwards just not as good)
DT: Geno, Krumrie, Mike Reid
LB: Reggie Williams, Jim LeClair
CB: Riley, Parrish, Hall
FS: Tommy Casanova, Nelson
SS: Fulcher, Vonn Bell
K: Evan
P: McInally
LS: CLark Harris

No Rodney Holman at TE? I suppose I never put too much thought into the kicking game. Are you going with Evan since the kickers today are athletic beasts who can make 55+ yard kicks?

QB - Anderson
RB - Dillon
FB - Ickey Woods
WR - Chad, Chase, AJ (I would love Chase in the slot with the other guys playing boundary)
TE - Holman
OT - Munoz, Whitworth (Willie if we want a traditional LT/RT pick)
OG - Montoya, Zeitler
C - Braham


DE - Hendrickson, Dunlap
DT - Geno, Krumrie
LB - Spikes, Reggie Williams, Wilson
CB - Riley, Parrish, Hall
FS - Bates
SS - Nelson

Nice lists above imo as I really can't argue against any of them. If anything Burfict doesn't make my all-time team, other than that though I can go along with these.

(12-21-2023, 11:26 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: No Rodney Holman at TE? I suppose I never put too much thought into the kicking game. Are you going with Evan since the kickers today are athletic beasts who can make 55+ yard kicks?

Correct, but not only distance, they are significantly more-accurate nowadays, the old guys just can't compete.

And I've been over this with people here before lol: Holman (and Dan Ross, for that matter) were on stacked teams as the 3rd, sometimes 4th option and STILL had insane numbers. McGee played on awful offenses (outside of maybe a 2-3 year stretch) and Trumpy was basically the man for the early years, so I give them the nod.

Plus McGee was a very good blocker (I know Holman was too, not taking that away from him), I've always said that if you put McGee on those 80s teams, he equals or exceeds Holman/Ross numbers.

Ultimately, I think Eifert was the best pass catching TE we've ever had, but was deficient in other areas, hence why he's left off.

(12-20-2023, 10:36 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think there's a case to be made for Chase being better but this is definitely some recency bias. Chad was an ironman and only missed five games due to injury in his 10 seasons in Cincinnati. He played in 96% of games available to him. Chase still has a long way to go in his career, but he has had a shaky start with injuries so far. He has only played in 84% thus far and is set to miss more this season. Chad also did it in a notoriously more physical era. I think it is hard to argue that Chase "blows the doors off Chad" when it comes to toughness. 

I would also claim Chad on route running, but this is a bit of a complex topic that we don't have all the information on because what they do can be dependent on how the defense plays them I.E. man vs. cover 2/quarters/quarters-half etc. Chase is more physical than Chad was, but Chad was exceptionally quick and savvy in getting open. This, I think was Chad's best trait along with his body control, which I would also give to Chad. Throwing an out route to Chad enabled you to throw it at one of the coaches on the bench and it was still a good ball for him with how he could lay out for a catch. Trying to go much deeper, I have no idea. When these guys are running option routes, who is consistently running the correct one for the defense they are seeing? Shit if I know. 

I think Chase cleanly wins when it comes to after the catch ability, contested catches, and his ability to make plays deep. This kind of goes hand-in-hand with his contested catches ability. Chase is so savvy with how he can get away with a push off to create separation right as the ball is arriving. I think he is also a more dynamic athlete than Chad was so once he gets the ball in his hands he is more dangerous in space. Both of them have/had good hands. The easiest thing to do would be to compare dropped passes but there aren't any publicly available resources to use for Chad's career. Chase has a 4.1% drop percentage this year, and a little over 6% for his career (21 drops in three seasons). He is in the upper 1/4 of the league this year, and his career percentage is roughly NFL average.

Chad was a dude, just like Chase is. He has multiple first team AP selections for a reason in a time where he was competing against some all-time greats. Chase very well could be better, but he isn't blowing the doors off him IMO. 

Statistically speaking, it's Chase and it's not even really close.

Currently, Chase averages 85.0 yards/game and 9.3 yards/target.  Chad averaged 66.6 yards/game and 8.1 yards/target.  Chad has a 55.8% career catch% vs 66.2% for Chase. Chad played in a tougher era, but the numbers aren't even close.

Comparing their respective record seasons, it took Chase 128 targets to get to 1455 yards his rookie season.  It took Chad 161 targets to reach 1440.  

Chad is probably one of the Top 5 technicians to ever play the position.  However, he just isn't anywhere close to having had the physical gifts Chase does.  It's fair to argue longevity when we're talking Bengals greats, so I don't have an issue with folks putting Chad over Ja'Marr based on tenure, However, if the Bengals were playing in the Superbowl and you had the option to have either prime Chad Johnson or prime Ja'Marr Chase, it Chase, all day, all night.

(12-21-2023, 01:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: Statistically speaking, it's Chase and it's not even really close.

Currently, Chase averages 85.0 yards/game and 9.3 yards/target.  Chad averaged 66.6 yards/game and 8.1 yards/target.  Chad has a 55.8% career catch% vs 66.2% for Chase. Chad played in a tougher era, but the numbers aren't even close.

Comparing their respective record seasons, it took Chase 128 targets to get to 1455 yards his rookie season.  It took Chad 161 targets to reach 1440.  

Chad is probably one of the Top 5 technicians to ever play the position.  However, he just isn't anywhere close to having had the physical gifts Chase does.  It's fair to argue longevity when we're talking Bengals greats, so I don't have an issue with folks putting Chad over Ja'Marr based on tenure, However, if the Bengals were playing in the Superbowl and you had the option to have either prime Chad Johnson or prime Ja'Marr Chase, it Chase, all day, all night.

I have no issue with this. Like I said, I definitely think there is a case to be made because of the statistical gulf. I was just arguing some of the more specific points like Chase blowing the doors off Chad when it came to route running, toughness etc. 

(12-21-2023, 09:22 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m sure he cries himself to sleep every night worrying about  being in the Bengals RoH while he’s looking at his Super Bowl ring.

Wel he sure made a big deal over not being selected yet.

(12-20-2023, 05:16 PM)J24 Wrote: QB- Burrow, Anderson, Boomer
RB- Dillon, Brooks, R.Rohnson, Mixon
FB- Neal
TE-  Holman, Eifert, Tumpy, Gresham
Wr- Chase, C.Johnson, Green, Curtis, Pickens, Housh
OT-Munoz, Anderson,  Whitworth
G- Max M, B.Wiiams, Lap, Zeitler
C- Barham, R.Cook

3T- Geno, Wilkerson,
NT- Krumi, Reader, Peko
E- Bacon, Hendrickson, Dunlap, J.Smith
MLB- L.Wilson, B Simmons, Bill Bergy
WLB- Vontaz, Spikes,
CB- Riley, Parrish,  Joseph, E Thomas,
NB- Hall, Hilton
FS- Bates, Casanova
SS- Fulcher, Nelson

LS- Clark Harris
P- Huber
K-;Pelfry

Apparently it's starters and not the whole team. 
QB- Burrow
RB- Brooks
WR- Curtis
WR Johnson
SWR- Chase
TE- Eifert
LT- Munoz
LG- Whitworth 
C- Barham
RG-Max Montana 
RT- W. Anderson 
RB2- Dillon 
TE2- Gresham

Defense- 
DE- Dunlap
3T- Geno
NT- Reader
DE- Hendrickson 
MLB- Wilson
WLB- Spikes
CB1- Riley
CB2-Joseph
NB- Hilton
SS- Fulcher 
FS- Bates
Nickle DT- Wilkerson 
Dime DB- Hall
Nickle LB- Simmons

(12-20-2023, 10:48 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, Chad was tough as nails. Those Pittsburgh and Baltimore defenses were loaded with HoFers that he was going up against 4x a year.

I don't think of Chad as tough. Not saying he isn't, but besides bouncing off Ray Lewis, I just remember him going down willingly quite often. The WR give up, so to speak.

Chad Johnson is an all time great Bengal and would be considered a spectacular player in any era. I just have him behind Chase & Green as far as over all skillsets go. I also think Chase is more dangerous than either from a big play standpoint, yac, etc.

(12-21-2023, 03:48 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I don't think of Chad as tough. Not saying he isn't, but besides bouncing off Ray Lewis, I just remember him going down willingly quite often. The WR give up, so to speak.

Chad Johnson is an all time great Bengal and would be considered a spectacular player in any era. I just have him behind Chase & Green as far as over all skillsets go. I also think Chase is more dangerous than either from a big play standpoint, yac, etc.

Dude was taken off the field in an Ambulance in Buffalo and started the following weekend

He played a full year with a torn labrum

Played 7 years in the NFL before he missed a game due to injury

(12-21-2023, 03:48 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I don't think of Chad as tough. Not saying he isn't, but besides bouncing off Ray Lewis, I just remember him going down willingly quite often. The WR give up, so to speak.

Chad Johnson is an all time great Bengal and would be considered a spectacular player in any era. I just have him behind Chase & Green as far as over all skillsets go. I also think Chase is more dangerous than either from a big play standpoint, yac, etc.

Say what you want, but I would suggest 95% of receivers playing today would be hurt all the time playing under the rules Chad and those before him played under. 

(12-20-2023, 05:16 PM)J24 Wrote: QB- Burrow, Anderson, Boomer
RB- Dillon, Brooks, R.Rohnson, Mixon
FB- Neal
TE-  Holman, Eifert, Tumpy, Gresham
Wr- Chase, C.Johnson, Green, Curtis, Pickens, Housh
OT-Munoz, Anderson,  Whitworth
G- Max M, B.Wiiams, Lap, Zeitler
C- Barham, R.Cook

3T- Geno, Wilkerson,
NT- Krumi, Reader, Peko
E- Bacon, Hendrickson, Dunlap, J.Smith
MLB- L.Wilson, B Simmons, Bill Bergy
WLB- Vontaz, Spikes,
CB- Riley, Parrish,  Joseph, E Thomas,
NB- Hall, Hilton
FS- Bates, Casanova
SS- Fulcher, Nelson

LS- Clark Harris
P- Huber
K-;Pelfry

Rudy Johnson is a product of a good line. Not top 5 Bengal RBs. Never broke a big run over 40.

(12-20-2023, 05:19 PM)Sled21 Wrote: *&#$ Corey Dillon coming around now acting like he's still part of the family. The man left throwing his equipment into the stands and badmouthed the Bengals for decades. Now that they're winning, he wants to be part of it again. Child please, go away.

Still the best RB in Bengal history & it's not even close.