(12-27-2023, 10:42 AM)Wyche Wrote: I was referring to your post about our coach.....you kinda trashed him before coming to the defense of Omar Epps. 

So it's ok to trash Marvin who inherited a 2-14 team vs ZT who inherited a 6-10 team??

Before Marvin inherited our team when and who was the last coach that had a winning record??

P.S. Shame on you if you get that question wrong. 

Same question for ZT before he came here when and who was the last coach that had a winning record??

(12-26-2023, 11:38 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Prediction that Tomlin in the future will be joining the next team Cowher is on called NFL HOF 

Sure. If he makes the HOF, he should thank Cowher first in his speech. That's all I'm saying.

(12-27-2023, 09:58 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: Here is some context for you. Cowher's team that you glorify[hand in your Bengals fan card] was a wild card team that won a controversial championship. And had NEVER done anything prior to that tainted championship. You may kiss their ass of that tainted championship, but I don't. Dick Lebeau was a Dick see Bengals 2000-2002.

I am not a Steeler fan, but I hate Cowher and it confuses me that you give this POS a pass. 

 

True. I guess Cowher had never done anything besides make a Super Bowl with Neil O'Donnell and be a consistent contender even with Kordell Stewart.

And also set Tomlin up for early success that he has since failed to replicate.

(12-27-2023, 10:12 AM)Wyche Wrote: Hell, at least he's not defending the current StOoLeR coach and bashing ours like someone else who shall remain "nameless".

Right on. My point wasn't to pump up Cowher so much as be honest about the current overrated dude pacing the sidelines in Pittsburgh.

Zac Taylor has more playoff wins in the last 2 years than Tomlin has in his last 12.

(12-27-2023, 10:53 AM)Wyche Wrote: It's almost like there's something different about this season vs the last two .....I can't quite put my finger on it, but yeah, there's definitely something different about this season vs the last two where we won the AFCN ....

Fair. Joe hasn't been healthy all year. I just wonder why we're 8-2 outside the division, but 0-5 within the AFCN.

The games aren't even close, really. I do think Zac will adjust, and hopefully we have a healthy Joe next year.

(12-27-2023, 12:13 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’ve thought that too but couldn’t put a finger on it. I think they were over confident. The team and coaches. Not in a cocky way but more just matter of fact “we’ve got this” But I’m not ready to go as far as Shake n BLake about the division. The Ravens have improved their roster better than us and Monken has helped a ton. Stefanski maybe has done the best job but they are all about the trenches. So looking at our games in the division the Browns first game is no indicator with Joe hobbled. The first Ravens game Joe was hobbled we barely lost. The second Raven’s game we took the lead when Joe got hurt 10-7. The second Steelers game was bad especially the defense. To me it’s all about the OL. We can’t run the freaking ball.

I just wonder why we struggle so mightily vs the division, but despite our issues and injuries, we're cruising vs everyone else.

8-2 vs non-division
99.0 passer rating for Joe and Jake, with 18 TD's to 8 INT's
87.9 rush yards per game with 10 TD's in 10 games
110.2 rush yards allowed with 10 TD's in 10 games
Our offense averages 25.0 ppg
Our defense allows 21.0 ppg

0-5 vs division
77.0 passer rating for Joe and Jake, with 5 TD's to 5 INT's
72.2 rush yards per game with 0 TD's in 5 games
161.4 rush yards allowed with 7 TD's in 5 games
Our offense averages 13.6 ppg
Our defense allows 27.0 ppg

Whatever problems we do have are heavily magnified in this division. We're actually passing really well outside of the division, and our run game is punching the ball into the EZ at least. Inside the division, our pass game and run game have both been stonewalled, and they've all been running the ball down our throat. AFCN football.

(12-27-2023, 06:27 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: True. I guess Cowher had never done anything besides make a Super Bowl with Neil O'Donnell and be a consistent contender even with Kordell Stewart.

And also set Tomlin up for early success that he has since failed to replicate.

Shake my friend I am disappointed in you continuously giving Cowherpes a pass. 

Cowherpes had two wins automatically each year during the Bengals 90's. He had his thugs go after Palmer. Was and still is a Bengals hater.
The one and only Championship this D*** had was tainted over the Seahawks. 
 
Cowherpes is a dirtbag scum. 

(12-27-2023, 07:05 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: Shake my friend I am disappointed in you continuously giving Cowherpes a pass. 

Cowherpes had two wins automatically each year during the Bengals 90's. He had his thugs go after Palmer. Was and still is a Bengals hater.
The one and only Championship this D*** had was tainted over the Seahawks. 
 
Cowherpes is a dirtbag scum. 

I agree. He was also better than Tomlin and set Tomlin up for success that Tomlin has failed to replicate in the last 13 years.

I just look at the players that led to Tomlin's best success and 90% of them were drafted by Cowher. Dlck was also a huge reason for that success, and again, he was a Cowher guy.

If Tomlin had done much of note in the last 13 years, I'd agree with you. He hasn't. Tomlin also had 2 free wins against the Browns and tbh the Bengals for most of his career.

You can not like a guy or his teams and still be honest.

(12-27-2023, 06:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I just wonder why we struggle so mightily vs the division, but despite our issues and injuries, we're cruising vs everyone else.

8-2 vs non-division
99.0 passer rating for Joe and Jake, with 18 TD's to 8 INT's
87.9 rush yards per game with 10 TD's in 10 games
110.2 rush yards allowed with 10 TD's in 10 games
Our offense averages 25.0 ppg
Our defense allows 21.0 ppg

0-5 vs division
77.0 passer rating for Joe and Jake, with 5 TD's to 5 INT's
72.2 rush yards per game with 0 TD's in 5 games
161.4 rush yards allowed with 7 TD's in 5 games
Our offense averages 13.6 ppg
Our defense allows 27.0 ppg

Whatever problems we do have are heavily magnified in this division. We're actually passing really well outside of the division, and our run game is punching the ball into the EZ at least. Inside the division, our pass game and run game have both been stonewalled, and they've all been running the ball down our throat. AFCN football.

Why we struggled this year? I pointed it out earlier. Don’t be consumed with the stats. We aren’t built like the other 3. But we haven’t. They don’t match up with us. The first game (Pitt) Joe was what 65% ? Throw that out. The second game the Raven’s barely beat us. Joe was what 75%? The next game Pitt beat Jake Browning 16-10. The next game vs Ravens we lead 10-7 Joe goes down. Jake takes on Pitt we have our big whiff. This team is not a grind it out in the run game team. It’s lead by Joe on a quick accurate and passing game augmented by receivers that are pure mismatches. But saying it’s failed isn’t accurate. In 21-22 we were 7-6. We won the division back to back. We’ve got some trench issues. We need to be more successful in the run game plain and simple.

(12-27-2023, 06:10 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: So it's ok to trash Marvin who inherited a 2-14 team vs ZT who inherited a 6-10 team??

Before Marvin inherited our team when and who was the last coach that had a winning record??

P.S. Shame on you if you get that question wrong. 

Same question for ZT before he came here when and who was the last coach that had a winning record??

I'm not trashing  either, I prasied Marvin  for turning a losing team around and praise ZT do not only turning team around but moving them into SB contenders.

(12-27-2023, 08:16 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Why we struggled this year? I pointed it out earlier. Don’t be consumed with the stats. We aren’t built like the other 3. But we haven’t. They don’t match up with us. The first game (Pitt) Joe was what 65% ? Throw that out. The second game the Raven’s barely beat us. Joe was what 75%? The next game Pitt beat Jake Browning 16-10. The next game vs Ravens we lead 10-7 Joe goes down. Jake takes on Pitt we have our big whiff. This team is not a grind it out in the run game team. It’s lead by Joe on a quick accurate and passing game augmented by receivers that are pure mismatches. But saying it’s failed isn’t accurate. In 21-22 we were 7-6. We won the division back to back. We’ve got some trench issues. We need to be more successful in the run game plain and simple.

We don't have Joe and we can't run or stop the run. Like I said, these are magnified in the AFCN. Do we really disagree all that much, here?

Fwiw, Browning has been great outside the division and terrible in the division, and I'm not sure "no Joe" explains that. Other than the defenses are better.

Joe was also better outside of the division, himself.

(12-27-2023, 11:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We don't have Joe and we can't run or stop the run. Like I said, these are magnified in the AFCN. Do we really disagree all that much, here?

Fwiw, Browning has been great outside the division and terrible in the division, and I'm not sure "no Joe" explains that. Other than the defenses are better.

Joe was also better outside of the division, himself.

Again you are focusing on this year. In 21-22 we were back to back division winners and had a 7-6 record. This year tough to measure for the reasons I said. You have to throw them all out we aren’t geared to win in this division without Joe.

(12-28-2023, 01:02 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Again you are focusing on this year. In 21-22 we were back to back division winners and had a 7-6 record. This year tough to measure for the reasons I said. You have to throw them all out we aren’t geared to win in this division without Joe.

Other teams are capable of catching up or getting better. We had a target on our backs and teams in our division drafted to stop us.

I'm not saying I know the answer at all. I am just raising a very fair question. Have the teams in the rest of our division caught up?

Obviously we have a built in excuse with Joe, but any way we look at this, 0-5 with 3 butt kickings mixed is discouraging. 

If we are that reliant on Joe, maybe we shouldn't be.

Also, does it say something that even at our best, we were 7-6 in the division? That's mediocre.

(12-27-2023, 06:10 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: So it's ok to trash Marvin who inherited a 2-14 team vs ZT who inherited a 6-10 team??

Before Marvin inherited our team when and who was the last coach that had a winning record??

P.S. Shame on you if you get that question wrong. 

Same question for ZT before he came here when and who was the last coach that had a winning record??

I didn't trash Marvin. My only gripe with Marvin is he should've given the Biz a pimp hand after the shit his team pulled in that playoff game. Dancing at midfield while a guy lays unconscious on the turf, a coach slinging a player by his dreads on the sidelines, a coach on the field inciting fights.....but dear ol Marvin has class. Too much class in that case. 

(12-27-2023, 06:27 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sure. If he makes the HOF, he should thank Cowher first in his speech. That's all I'm saying.


True. I guess Cowher had never done anything besides make a Super Bowl with Neil O'Donnell and be a consistent contender even with Kordell Stewart.

And also set Tomlin up for early success that he has since failed to replicate.


Right on. My point wasn't to pump up Cowher so much as be honest about the current overrated dude pacing the sidelines in Pittsburgh.

Zac Taylor has more playoff wins in the last 2 years than Tomlin has in his last 12.


Fair. Joe hasn't been healthy all year. I just wonder why we're 8-2 outside the division, but 0-5 within the AFCN.

The games aren't even close, really. I do think Zac will adjust, and hopefully we have a healthy Joe next year.

I think Joe overcomes a lack of physicality with this team by being overwhelmingly prepared and quick at dissecting what he sees. That's why we can compete in this division with him, and run with the modern NFL against everyone else. We definitely get outphysicaled a lot in our division.

I remember us changing to two linebacker base defense the nickel years ago because we lacked a third linebacker that year. We are built to play NFC teams not AFC north teams we need a thumper at linebacker. Our linebackers are soft just like our defense.

(12-28-2023, 01:36 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Other teams are capable of catching up or getting better. We had a target on our backs and teams in our division drafted to stop us.

I'm not saying I know the answer at all. I am just raising a very fair question. Have the teams in the rest of our division caught up?

Obviously we have a built in excuse with Joe, but any way we look at this, 0-5 with 3 butt kickings mixed is discouraging. 

If we are that reliant on Joe, maybe we shouldn't be.

Also, does it say something that even at our best, we were 7-6 in the division? That's mediocre.

I think catching us is more related to improving themselves. Again you are focusing on this year. It’s not really relevant. Baltimore was weak at receiver and they did something about it. They improved themselves at OC. But they barely beat us in the first game with a 65% Joe and we led 10-7 when Joe went down the second time. Pittsburg has not improved but Mason Rudolph should have been their starter the last several years. I wasn’t surprised they went off. But they caught us playing a poor game on defense and offense. You can’t go off one game. We beat SF 31-14. Oh the pundits say they were missing Debo and Trent. Their defense wasn’t. The team was peaking until Joe’s injury let’s don’t over analyze everything. As Wyche said this team is Joe centric. Most teams with high dollar QB’s are. Your thoughts are certainly valid. We are not as physical as the others and we need to have a better running game. I’ve been screaming that for years. We may be missing Bates & Vonn Bell ( shouldn’t be a huge surprise) but KC is missing a better receiving corp and better OT’s. Roster management rough with a high dollar QB.

(12-28-2023, 04:18 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: I think Joe overcomes a lack of physicality with this team by being overwhelmingly prepared and quick at dissecting what he sees. That's why we can compete in this division with him, and run with the modern NFL against everyone else. We definitely get outphysicaled a lot in our division.

This is spot on. Love Shake N Bake’s discussion here but I think our division woes he’s too much focused on. I think it’s more related to Baltimore getting better and Cleveland. Stefanski hired Jim Schwartz who can coach and Harbaugh hired Monken. I don’t look at it like we dropped the ball but that they have picked up the pace. This year isn’t indicative of the Bengals current state. Like I’ve said they’d better get a run game. I mean the worst one doesn’t cut it period I don’t care how good they are in the short yardage passing. If we’ve been exposed it’s that with a poor running game Joe can supplement it with precision short passing game because of his accuracy. Jake not so much. There’s their issue. I don’t know enough about it and no Joe Goodberry. But they’ve gone back and forth on man blocking and zone blocking. To me they’ve maybe got some who are better at one than the other. Personally I think Pollack is a poor run schemer. I don’t think Zac is Kyle Shanahan in run scheming. He needs a good OL coach who can help him.

(12-28-2023, 04:18 AM)Wyche Wrote: I think Joe overcomes a lack of physicality with this team by being overwhelmingly prepared and quick at dissecting what he sees. That's why we can compete in this division with him, and run with the modern NFL against everyone else. We definitely get outphysicaled a lot in our division.

You're probably right, but man... 161 rush yards allowed, per game? That's atrocious. How about we all meet in the middle and say "no Joe" is the biggest problem, but we have some other major issues we should probably look at? Not that any of us are really disagreeing that much.

Tbh, I think Zac should look at a new OL coach while also seeing if he can do anything scheme-wise to protect Joe. Then look at beefing up the front 7 or front 6 or whatever it is these days.

What's strange is that I remember going at Anarumo the first couple years, because teams were rushing for 200 on us every other week.

Then over the last couple years, those problems mostly disappeared. Now they're back. Not really sure why.

(12-28-2023, 06:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You're probably right, but man... 161 rush yards allowed, per game? That's atrocious. How about we all meet in the middle and say "no Joe" is the biggest problem, but we have some other major issues we should probably look at? Not that any of us are really disagreeing that much.

Tbh, I think Zac should look at a new OL coach while also seeing if he can do anything scheme-wise to protect Joe. Then look at beefing up the front 7 or front 6 or whatever it is these days.

What's strange is that I remember going at Anarumo the first couple years, because teams were rushing for 200 on us every other week.

Then over the last couple years, those problems mostly disappeared. Now they're back. Not really sure why.

Sadly has Zac fired anybody? Pollack is Mike Browns guy. Turner offered to quit long before Zac pulled the trigger. I know Al Golden left but he thought he was the smartest guy in the room and was itching to get back to giving orders not taking them. Zac made some early changes but things are pretty settled in. I think Zac needs an OL coach who can help scheme a better run game and evaluate better.

(12-28-2023, 06:44 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Sadly has Zac fired anybody? Pollack is Mike Browns guy. Turner offered to quit long before Zac pulled the trigger. I know Al Golden left but he thought he was the smartest guy in the room and was itching to get back to giving orders not taking them. Zac made some early changes but things are pretty settled in. I think Zac needs an OL coach who can help scheme a better run game and evaluate better.

Tbh, I think it's wild that we have this much talent on the line and it still performs poorly. I know this isn't the '94 Cowboys or anything, but we have 3 guys who have started in Super Bowls. Plus a 1st round pick in Jonah.

We should be fine.

(12-27-2023, 07:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree. He was also better than Tomlin and set Tomlin up for success that Tomlin has failed to replicate in the last 13 years.

I just look at the players that led to Tomlin's best success and 90% of them were drafted by Cowher. Dlck was also a huge reason for that success, and again, he was a Cowher guy.

If Tomlin had done much of note in the last 13 years, I'd agree with you. He hasn't. Tomlin also had 2 free wins against the Browns and tbh the Bengals for most of his career.

You can not like a guy or his teams and still be honest.

So Tomlin AGAIN has a season above .500. At what point do you disengage from Cowher's team, 20 years, 30 years??

No one with an ounce of honesty won't give this guy the credit he is due. I am no Stooler fan, especially since the Knoll and Cowher years but this current coach of the Stealers has them in contention for at least the playoffs in the last week of the season for what 17 years? No Stealer or Bengals coach can claim that they had them in contention of the playoffs the last week of the season.