(12-28-2023, 12:46 AM)ochocincos Wrote: OBJ has allowed 20 more pressures than Williams this year, according to PFF. Just sayin'.

Jonah's pressure to sack conversion rate is high for his career which means when he loses its often a negative play which kills drives. 

Edit: He's league average for pressures allowed for his career but probabaly the worst in the league in actual negative play numbers (TFL, Sacks)

May need to move on from here after 2023.

One awful game and now they turn on him lmao

(12-28-2023, 12:54 AM)Synric Wrote: Jonah's pressure to sack conversion rate is high for his career which means when he loses its often a negative play which kills drives. 

Edit: He's league average for pressures allowed for his career but probabaly the worst in the league in actual negative play numbers (TFL, Sacks)

We kind of discussed this in another thread, but Jonah is unfortunately athletically limited and doesn't have anything to fall back on when his technique fails him(or just isn't enough).  He's undersized and has shorter arm length than what you'd like and isn't athletic enough to recover when initially beat.  He would probably be better suited to G, except he doesn't have a good anchor, either.  He's a great technician, and that allows him to hold up against average pass rushers, but he simply doesn't have the physical tools to hang with elite pass rushers.  He gets embarrassed by Watt and Garrett every time we go against them.

(12-27-2023, 03:19 PM)casear2727 Wrote:

(12-28-2023, 12:47 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: One awful game and now they turn on him lmao

Except it's not just one awful game.  His grades on the season are the worst of his career, in fact his grades seem to have went lineally downhill since he first emerged.  Typically you expect the opposite from your top 10 selection.

(12-28-2023, 01:51 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Except it's not just one awful game.  His grades on the season are the worst of his career, in fact his grades seem to have went lineally downhill since he first emerged.  Typically you expect the opposite from your top 10 selection.

Exactly, I was hoping I was wrong about Jonah and Frank was right, but looking at those yearly grades you have a player getting worse and worse.

Never a good sign.

(12-28-2023, 12:20 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Alabama OL just don't seem to work out, I am out on them. Obviously PFF aren't be-all-end-all, but I am just doing a fast-and-loose generalization....

2023 3rd, Tyler Steen: 53.2 (Backup)
2022 1st, Evan Neal: 39.8
2021 1st, Alex Leatherwood: --.- (Practice Squad)
2021 2nd, Landon Dickerson: 69.2 
2021 6th, Deonte Brown: --.- (Practice Squad)
2020 1st, Jedrick Willis: 54.0
2019 1st, Jonah Williams: 59.7
2019 5th, Ross Pierschbacher: --.- (Free Agent)

...that's the last 5 years of Alabama OL who have been drafted. Dickerson would be a solid get, but that's 4 guys taken in the 1st round who have not lived up to billing. 

Alabama OL are still going to be top targets because they are some of the best recruits on a top program. Just looking ahead next year they will have 6'5 350lb LG Tyler Booker and the top OL recruit in the country playing LT Freshman Kadyn Procter (6'7 360lbs just turned 18 years old...).

The same thing happens at other programs like Ohio State, Georgia, Wisconsin, Oregon, Oklahoma, Michigan pretty much all the schools that recruit the top OL. Penn State seems to recruit crazy athletes they have Edge defenders every other year including two for the 2024 draft. 

(12-29-2023, 11:09 AM)Synric Wrote: Alabama OL are still going to be top targets because they are some of the best recruits on a top program. Just looking ahead next year they will have 6'5 350lb LG Tyler Booker and the top OL recruit in the country playing LT Freshman Kadyn Procter (6'7 360lbs just turned 18 years old...).

The same thing happens at other programs like Ohio State, Georgia, Wisconsin, Oregon, Oklahoma, Michigan pretty much all the schools that recruit the top OL. Penn State seems to recruit crazy athletes they have Edge defenders every other year including two for the 2024 draft. 

And Penn State will have quite possibly the top OL target for the draft this year in  Olu Fashanu, who hasn't given up a sack, I believe, in the last two years. But there will be a few good OL targets and perhaps one will get to the Bengals in the first round, should they want to go that route to replace Jonah Williams.

There will be two top-tier RTs available for our first pick. JC Lathem from Alabama, and Amarius Mimms from Georgia.

Oklahoma- RT Tyler Guyton is in the 2nd possibly a 3rd rounder.

(12-29-2023, 02:57 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: There will be two top-tier RTs available for our first pick.  JC Lathem from Alabama, and Amarius Mimms from Georgia.

Oklahoma- RT Tyler Guyton is in the 2nd possibly a 3rd rounder.

Are we speculating that the Bengals would all of a sudden add RT to the list of premium positions to invest a high pick in?  Logically I know that in the modern NFL, a team needs both tackles to be athletic pass blockers, but does the team management see it that way?

(12-28-2023, 01:51 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Except it's not just one awful game.  His grades on the season are the worst of his career, in fact his grades seem to have went lineally downhill since he first emerged.  Typically you expect the opposite from your top 10 selection.

Jonah was doing rather well prior to playing the Steelers this year.
Ever since Week 12 (5 games), he's allowed 4 sacks.
Compare that to 4 sacks in the10 games prior.
Steelers games alone accounted for 3 of those 4 sacks in the past 5 games.

Divisional games have resulted in just 2 sacks allowed. The other 6 have come in the divisional games.
So the division has both schemed a way to beat him and also the AFC North just has really good pass rushers.

At the end of the day, I say Jonah is solid. He does well against non-elite rushers. But he does get beat pretty bad against good rushers, which probably isn't the best when playing against CLE, PIT, and BAL twice a year.

I'm ok if Jonah departs after this season, but we also should be prepared that it is possible the Bengals get even worse at RT bringing in someone new.

(12-29-2023, 03:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Jonah was doing rather well prior to playing the Steelers this year.
Ever since Week 12 (5 games), he's allowed 4 sacks.
Compare that to 4 sacks in the10 games prior.
Steelers games alone accounted for 3 of those 4 sacks in the past 5 games.

Divisional games have resulted in just 2 sacks allowed. The other 6 have come in the divisional games.
So the division has both schemed a way to beat him and also the AFC North just has really good pass rushers.

At the end of the day, I say Jonah is solid. He does well against non-elite rushers. But he does get beat pretty bad against good rushers, which probably isn't the best when playing against CLE, PIT, and BAL twice a year.

I'm ok if Jonah departs after this season, but we also should be prepared that it is possible the Bengals get even worse at RT bringing in someone new.

A team needs to be built to win it's division, first.  That is definitely an oversight by the (defacto) GM of this team.

(12-29-2023, 03:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: ...At the end of the day, I say Jonah is solid. He does well against non-elite rushers. But he does get beat pretty bad against good rushers, which probably isn't the best when playing against CLE, PIT, and BAL twice a year...

Its also not good if you want to win a Super Bowl.  In the playoffs you will face some very good defenses with elite pass rushers.  If your offensive line is not good enough to defend against a good pass rush, you hurt your chances a lot.  If the Bengals had a good offensive line the last couple of years, they could have won the past 2 Super Bowls.  The excuse cant be well they have to play against T.J. Watt, they had to play against Aaron Donald, they had to play Chris Jones, etc...  The reality is you are going to face those type players in the playoffs and Super Bowl and if you want to win it all you need an offensive line that can handle them.

(12-29-2023, 03:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Are we speculating that the Bengals would all of a sudden add RT to the list of premium positions to invest a high pick in?  Logically I know that in the modern NFL, a team needs both tackles to be athletic pass blockers, but does the team management see it that way?

Team MGT will need to give Burrow the very best chance to excel in the pocket and picking the best ROT is what I'd do.  If not, they're going to turn him into another David Kingler and Chase into Carl Pickens.
 
Then I'm going best available, NT, TE, WR, LB, CB, HB, FS in no particular order.  I see us moving Dax to Hilton's spot. Who knows what will happen with TEE. I guess we'll need to see who we re-sign b/c as you said, there could be many holes to fill.  

(12-29-2023, 04:40 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Its also not good if you want to win a Super Bowl.  In the playoffs you will face some very good defenses with elite pass rushers.  If your offensive line is not good enough to defend against a good pass rush, you hurt your chances a lot.  If the Bengals had a good offensive line the last couple of years, they could have won the past 2 Super Bowls.  The excuse cant be well they have to play against T.J. Watt, they had to play against Aaron Donald, they had to play Chris Jones, etc...  The reality is you are going to face those type players in the playoffs and Super Bowl and if you want to win it all you need an offensive line that can handle them.

0-5 versus the division tells you all that the Bengals need to do in order to win the Superbowl.  The AFCN has 3 of the toughest defensive fronts in the league, handle them and you can handle any team in the league.

(12-29-2023, 04:47 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: Team MGT will need to give Burrow the very best chance to excel in the pocket and picking the best ROT is what I'd do.  If not, they're going to turn him into another David Kingler and Chase into Carl Pickens.
 
Then I'm going best available, NT, TE, WR, LB, CB, HB, FS in no particular order.  I see us moving Dax to Hilton's spot. Who knows what will happen with TEE. I guess we'll need to see who we re-sign b/c as you said, there could be many holes to fill.  

I agree with what you would do, but will the Bengals GM see it the same?

(12-29-2023, 04:40 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Its also not good if you want to win a Super Bowl.  In the playoffs you will face some very good defenses with elite pass rushers.  If your offensive line is not good enough to defend against a good pass rush, you hurt your chances a lot.  If the Bengals had a good offensive line the last couple of years, they could have won the past 2 Super Bowls.  The excuse cant be well they have to play against T.J. Watt, they had to play against Aaron Donald, they had to play Chris Jones, etc...  The reality is you are going to face those type players in the playoffs and Super Bowl and if you want to win it all you need an offensive line that can handle them.

The two losses the Bengals have had in the playoffs to LA and KC, the problem was not the edge rushers. It was IDL, and they ate the IOL alive.
So while I get your point, not every good playoff team has really good edge rushers that would go against the OTs.
It's actually more common in recent years to see playoff teams having good interior pass rush.

(12-29-2023, 02:57 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: There will be two top-tier RTs available for our first pick.  JC Lathem from Alabama, and Amarius Mimms from Georgia.

Oklahoma- RT Tyler Guyton is in the 2nd possibly a 3rd rounder.

Lathem is climbing up the draft boards, he is Top 10 in many.  PFF is one of the very few that has him available at where we currently pick.  Jermaine Eluemanor will be available in free agency.  He could be an option, although he was destroyed by Watt as well.  

(12-29-2023, 04:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree with what you would do, but will the Bengals GM see it the same?

If I'm putting myself in the mindset of the Bengals braintrust, I think they're thinking this:
- This team was responsible for getting to the Super Bowl and two AFCCGs. You don't get there by replacing a good number of players. You try to keep the team as intact as possible within budget.
- These are the guys we know and helped get the team where it is, so we're higher on them than the fans probably are.
- With Burrow's big contract about to hit, we have to be mindful of what we can fit in budget these upcoming next few years.

So I think they'll look to only change out a few spots like they did this past year.
If they can fit it in the budget, they'll try to have as few departures of impending FAs as they can. Specifically Higgins, Reader, and even Jonah.
They'll fill the departures with probably a couple cost-appropriate vets and a couple high draft picks.
Most/all draft picks will end up being depth guys out of the gate and groomed to take over in future year(s), just like Murphy was selected.

(12-29-2023, 05:05 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The two losses the Bengals have had in the playoffs to LA and KC, the problem was not the edge rushers. It was IDL, and they ate the IOL alive.
So while I get your point, not every good playoff team has really good edge rushers that would go against the OTs.
It's actually more common in recent years to see playoff teams having good interior pass rush.

I wasnt speaking of just edge rushers just elite pass rushers in general.  The Bengals line hasnt been good enough to stop either edge or inside and that's the problem.