So... I think another question should be brought into the discussion.

Should A.I. be introduced into the making of calls ?
I'd be ok with it making offsides, false start, and other line calls.
I'm not sure it'd be economically viable to go full tilt with a camera on every onfield player, though.

(01-03-2024, 07:06 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: So... I think another question should be brought into the discussion.

Should A.I. be introduced into the making of calls ?
I'd be ok with it making offsides, false start, and other line calls.
I'm not sure it'd be economically viable to go full tilt with a camera on every onfield player, though.

With the amount of money the NFL makes it should invest in its officiating full time instead of weekend warriors.  Then, like any other job they should be reviewed and held accountable like any other individual in an organization.

There is no accountability now.  Heck, they can't even find competent referees according to a recent retired referee interview I heard not long ago.  Again, full time with  training programs, goals and objectives, weekly/annual reviews, etc.  Just like the rest of us.

(01-03-2024, 03:30 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: The NFL can just scapegoat the refs though making you and us think exactly what you said, in perpetuity.

They keep them part time too so they can scapegoat them even more. It's kinda crazy to me you have each owner making a billion dollars and they won't pay their refs full time salary w/benefits (?). There are a lot of refs, sure, but they're basically just like 1 more team lol. Don't the billionaires want to give their team the best chance to win? (I think some of us have accused Mike Brown of not doing so). Why wouldn't you want the best refs or reward the refs?

If you keep rules that are confusing you can control the game, right! lol.

I bet if Gene says the wrong thing he may be subject to a fine, is he allowed to say whatever he wants now that he's no longer in the NFL? That's what we hope lol.

Does the NFL still do the "ref report card" for only the last 2 minutes of the game or whatever? Why not ref report card for the whole game, guess the rest of the game doesn't matter lol. It does show they're trying to correct their problems at least, or is it just an illusion!

Lately I question after watching NFL for so long that it seems like every game we see something we've never seen before, how is that possible lol. Then again when playing Madden I see things I've never seen before but that's because it's buggy lol. That game ending almost ending 0-0 and then one of the teams scoring 63 the next game lol.

Those people who think the NFL is 100% real think we're crazy and they may be right lol, but if the NFL is influenced somehow by things we don't know or see, I bet they employ psychologists because it's easy to manipulate most people with simple actions or words, like a hypnotist lol. Maybe the NFL was not influenced as much as it is now, but now that there is a lot more money involved - things may have changed!

I'm not into the whole "rigged" discussion as it would take too many people to actually rig a game.  N

Now, when you have money involved people (refs) can always be influenced.  There is a LOT of money involved in the NFL.  It may only take 1 call at the right time to change the outcome of a game.  We saw that with the Logan Wilson pass interference in the Super Bowl and also this past weekend.  Timing is everything.

(01-02-2024, 05:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That was John Parry who worked that playoff game against us (opposing coach in a team's huddle on the field? penalty on the defense). Parry was also the booth "expert" who recently tried to cover for the refs in the Lions Cowboys game.

LoL, wow. I remember the ref's explanation, but whoever was the "expert" on the broadcast crew tripped all over himself trying to justify it. That was one of the worst crews I've ever seen. They knew the tension going in, and did absolutely nothing to get control of that game. Then proceeded to double down and get so many calls wrong.

(01-03-2024, 09:26 AM)Daddy-O Wrote:
I'm not into the whole "rigged" discussion as it would take too many people to actually rig a game.  N

Now, when you have money involved people (refs) can always be influenced.  There is a LOT of money involved in the NFL.  It may only take 1 call at the right time to change the outcome of a game.  We saw that with the Logan Wilson pass interference in the Super Bowl and also this past weekend.  Timing is everything.

Correct. Most NFL game outcomes can be swung in a desired outcome with a simple call or two at the right moment. IE, a phantom PI on Wilson in the Super Bowl allows the Rams 4 more downs. An intentional grounding call on Browning swings the game to KC's favor. A call like this doesn't guarantee an outcome, but it makes it more likely. The referees, like you said, are part time employees who could easily be swayed if they want to keep their jobs. And I'm quite sure they sign non-disclosure agreements when they get those jobs. 

(01-03-2024, 09:26 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: I'm not into the whole "rigged" discussion as it would take too many people to actually rig a game.  N

Now, when you have money involved people (refs) can always be influenced.  There is a LOT of money involved in the NFL.  It may only take 1 call at the right time to change the outcome of a game.  We saw that with the Logan Wilson pass interference in the Super Bowl and also this past weekend.  Timing is everything.

Not only would it take too many people to rig the whole thing... It be impossible to keep it quiet.

But man oh man the way the refs call games makes you wonder sometimes. lol

A lot of "amazing" comeback stories etc over the last 2 years.. If it is scripted the writer is getting better.

(01-03-2024, 07:06 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: So... I think another question should be brought into the discussion.

Should A.I. be introduced into the making of calls ?
I'd be ok with it making offsides, false start, and other line calls.
I'm not sure it'd be economically viable to go full tilt with a camera on every onfield player, though.

Baseball makes total sense to use AI to call balls/strikes and they won't. I think the NFL would be fairly far behind baseball on that.

(01-03-2024, 11:18 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Not only would it take too many people to rig the whole thing... It be impossible to keep it quiet.

But man oh man the way the refs call games makes you wonder sometimes. lol

A lot of "amazing" comeback stories etc over the last 2 years.. If it is scripted the writer is getting better.

And when it's the same teams that get screwed over and over again.... something ain't right.

(01-02-2024, 03:49 PM)Wyche Wrote: We got rooked a little, but Detroit took the whole shaft. That was absolutely ridiculous.

Unless Detroit is a woman 

(01-03-2024, 07:06 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: So... I think another question should be brought into the discussion.

Should A.I. be introduced into the making of calls ?
I'd be ok with it making offsides, false start, and other line calls.
I'm not sure it'd be economically viable to go full tilt with a camera on every onfield player, though.

I mean AI is probably already making the play calls, except in the case for the Bengals lol.

If it hasn't happened yet, post play, AI can immediately say "if they ran this play, it would have been more successful" or less successful.

(01-03-2024, 09:26 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: I'm not into the whole "rigged" discussion as it would take too many people to actually rig a game.  N

Now, when you have money involved people (refs) can always be influenced.  There is a LOT of money involved in the NFL.  It may only take 1 call at the right time to change the outcome of a game.  We saw that with the Logan Wilson pass interference in the Super Bowl and also this past weekend.  Timing is everything.

Your definition of rigged might be slightly different than mine, if some sole individual is causing a ref to sway a game due to financial reasons, periodically - is that being influenced, or rigged? What if that sole person is a billionaire? lol. If you jump one level higher you have every NFL team owner being a billionaire. They share their money too, do they want to lose money or make money? :) Sure, there is evidence games are getting influenced. The Browns 2 wins back to back on multiple suspect calls at the end of those games were fishy enough! Like who would be the one doing the paying, anyway, a book keeper?

NFL definitely wants to make money like any business, that's why they schedule all these divisional games at the end of the year lol. They almost had their browns vs. bengals game mean something that they desperately wanted when they scheduled it there.

it's very possible these professional sports without money were all "real" but something might change when there is so much money involved.

The NBA only caught that one ref, it's a bad mark when they're caught for sure, they probably wished he wasn't caught and just retired! lol

If you let your mind wander on "too many people are involved", you can then think only the ones that are athletically capable of controlling a game are the ones in the know (curry who can make 150 3s in a row in practice, the QBs who can drop dimes with their eyes closed/etc). Or in other words, the ones that are paid 50x more than the average player lol. Everyone else is just trying their best lol.

I think refs (in NFL specifically) refereed in disregard with the score, who is home or away, who was supposed to win, etc - a lot of games going into the 4th quarter would already be over and the game would be turned off and people have left the stadium lol. I think the warriors were something like 30-8 at home and 8-30 away, at some point recently (within the last few years). They're professionals and home cooking matters that much? lol

Being rigged, influenced or cheating, some combination is probably occurring. Like belichick says if you're not trying ot cheat you're not trying to win. The Astros (I think) were caught recording pitch signals from the outfield right? It just doesn't stop lol. I wonder what % of games we watch are fair and square. I realize players cheating is entirely different than a game being influenced, but we should probably be as mad either way. When belichick made that statement it immediately made me think no wonder we lose because mike brown tries to play fair lol. Kobe used to say if the ref doesn't see it, it's not a foul.

(01-03-2024, 11:23 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Baseball makes total sense to use AI to call balls/strikes and they won't. I think the NFL would be fairly far behind baseball on that.

I always view baseball as being way behind the times, they've "caught up" especially with letting AI call the strikes/balls. Made no sense to let an umpire do that, almost as much sense as letting tennis call faults by a human.

There were times when instant replay wasn't used in MLB, but they could have, foul balls were home runs but called foul - hilarious.

It’s not rigged per se, but legally the NFL is one of only 2 pro sports I believe that is listed for entertainment purposes only.

They could legally come out and blatantly rig games and it’s perfectly legit and legal.

Are they doing that or are the refs just that incredibly incompetent? Who knows. Maybe a bit of both. It only takes a call here or there at a critical time to try and swing the outcome.

Now you have a multi-billion dollar gambling industry involved. What could go wrong? lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(01-07-2024, 02:31 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: It’s not rigged per se, but legally the NFL is one of only 2 pro sports I believe that is listed for entertainment purposes only.

They could legally come out and blatantly rig games and it’s perfectly legit and legal.

Are they doing that or are the refs just that incredibly incompetent?   Who knows.  Maybe a bit of both.   It only takes a call here or there at a critical time to try and swing the outcome.

Now you have a multi-billion dollar gambling industry involved.   What could go wrong?   lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's not true.

There have been, unfortunately, lies spread around the internet.  How surprising?  Many social media pages, UberFacts (which has been uber wrong on many occasions) being one of them, has spread the idea that the NFL is a sports entertainment business.  And just like the WWE, the NFL can fix games.  Flat out false, and here is why.  The idea stems from an argumentative misinterpretation of the 2010 Supreme Court case Am. Needle, Inc. v. NFL.  Those who want to believe the NFL is rigged thought that the NFL was positioning itself a single entity giving it central control over the unifying interests of the many owners.  However, the NFL actually was positioning its spin-off creation NFLP, a corporation that holds all 32 teams’ intellectual property rights, as a single entity.  The unifying interests among the owners were to sell merchandise using NFL teams’ intellectual property.  Additionally, this argument was rejected by the Supreme Court.  Justice Stevens countered that just because the NFL formed a separate corporation called NFLP does not erase the fact that the organizations are separate profit-maximizing entities who do not have fully aligned interests.  The law currently does not view the NFL as a single entity.  Continuing, from this precedent, central control of the outcomes of NFL games would be a Sherman § 1 anti-trust violation.
https://ublawsportsforum.com/2023/02/21/the-nfl-isnt-rigged-but-this-is-how-they-would-do-it-and-why/

Supreme Court Decision:
The Supreme Court held that the National Football League's licensing of intellectual property in this case constitutes concerted action that is not categorically beyond Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act's coverage. With Justice John Paul Stevens writing for a unanimous Court, it noted that each NFL team is a substantial, independently owned, and independently managed business, whose objectives are not common. The Court reasoned that while the actions of NFL Properties ("NFLP") are not as easily classified as concerted activity, the NFLP's decisions about licensing are a concerted activity and, thus, are covered by Section 1.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/2009/08-661

NFLP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_Properties#:~:text=National%20Football%20League%20Properties%2C%20also,National%20Football%20League%20(NFL).

Litigation:
https://www.classaction.org/news/nfl-teams-fanatics-conspired-to-dominate-online-market-for-league-licensed-merchandise-new-class-action-claims

I'm going to buy a CJ Stroud jersey if he somehow beats the Browns in the wild card game, but I see 0% chance of that happening since the league wants/needs Flacco vs Lamar. I've gotta root for the Texans because Stroud reminds me of Burrow, quick decision maker, accurate, and dangerous at the end of games. That and I hate the Browns, but there is no way that Browns train is stopping early. I could only dream. There is a good chance the Browns D carries them to the Super Bowl and then it's anyone's game.

Can't imagine us ever living down CLE getting a Super Bowl before Burrow though.

I wonder what would have happened if the Browns didn't trade all those picks for Watson, and instead drafted Stroud. It would have been a Lamar, Stroud, Burrow and whatever stupid QB the steelers wanted to field every year. Crazy decade.

(01-07-2024, 06:58 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That's not true.

There have been, unfortunately, lies spread around the internet.  How surprising?  Many social media pages, UberFacts (which has been uber wrong on many occasions) being one of them, has spread the idea that the NFL is a sports entertainment business.  And just like the WWE, the NFL can fix games.  Flat out false, and here is why.  The idea stems from an argumentative misinterpretation of the 2010 Supreme Court case Am. Needle, Inc. v. NFL.  Those who want to believe the NFL is rigged thought that the NFL was positioning itself a single entity giving it central control over the unifying interests of the many owners.  However, the NFL actually was positioning its spin-off creation NFLP, a corporation that holds all 32 teams’ intellectual property rights, as a single entity.  The unifying interests among the owners were to sell merchandise using NFL teams’ intellectual property.  Additionally, this argument was rejected by the Supreme Court.  Justice Stevens countered that just because the NFL formed a separate corporation called NFLP does not erase the fact that the organizations are separate profit-maximizing entities who do not have fully aligned interests.  The law currently does not view the NFL as a single entity.  Continuing, from this precedent, central control of the outcomes of NFL games would be a Sherman § 1 anti-trust violation.
https://ublawsportsforum.com/2023/02/21/the-nfl-isnt-rigged-but-this-is-how-they-would-do-it-and-why/

Supreme Court Decision:
The Supreme Court held that the National Football League's licensing of intellectual property in this case constitutes concerted action that is not categorically beyond Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act's coverage. With Justice John Paul Stevens writing for a unanimous Court, it noted that each NFL team is a substantial, independently owned, and independently managed business, whose objectives are not common. The Court reasoned that while the actions of NFL Properties ("NFLP") are not as easily classified as concerted activity, the NFLP's decisions about licensing are a concerted activity and, thus, are covered by Section 1.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/2009/08-661

NFLP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_Properties#:~:text=National%20Football%20League%20Properties%2C%20also,National%20Football%20League%20(NFL).

Litigation:
https://www.classaction.org/news/nfl-teams-fanatics-conspired-to-dominate-online-market-for-league-licensed-merchandise-new-class-action-claims

Thank you for that info.  I stand corrected.

I will say though, as long as the refs keep going with these phantom calls that literally never even come close to actually happening I am going to believe something just isn't quite right.  I mean that intentional grounding that had the announcers going wtf, was not reversed even after a ref discussion.  Just too many fake calls to think something isn't up.  That doesn't mean it is the nfl fixing games.  Could be refs betting, completely and utterly incompetent, refs being threatened, etc.  I don't know.  I watched a lot of football this season and saw A LOT of fake calls and A LOT of announcers going wtf.

(01-07-2024, 07:24 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Thank you for that info.  I stand corrected.

I will say though, as long as the refs keep going with these phantom calls that literally never even come close to actually happening I am going to believe something just isn't quite right.  I mean that intentional grounding that had the announcers going wtf, was not reversed even after a ref discussion.  Just too many fake calls to think something isn't up.  That doesn't mean it is the nfl fixing games.  Could be refs betting, completely and utterly incompetent, refs being threatened, etc.  I don't know.  I watched a lot of football this season and saw A LOT of fake calls and A LOT of announcers going wtf.

If it was all rigged even the announcers would be in on it lol. I don't like blaming refs for something that seems obvious someone else is controlling (why are all these bad calls happening at the end of games affecting the outcome?). They also make bad calls during the game of course, but it feels like a game may go without any flags and then at the end suddenly we get a million of them lol.

I think the score of the game dictates reffing in a lot of sports. As if there's an underlying tone "if they're losing, keep the game close" mentality. Like rubber banding CPU play in video games lol. CPU is always going to be behind you in Mario kart even if you're PR'ing your lap time. Or the "makeup" calls we notice often, why are you making up a call, 2 mistakes fixing each other lol.

(01-06-2024, 04:10 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Your definition of rigged might be slightly different than mine, if some sole individual is causing a ref to sway a game due to financial reasons, periodically - is that being influenced, or rigged?  What if that sole person is a billionaire? lol. If you jump one level higher you have every NFL team owner being a billionaire. They share their money too, do they want to lose money or make money? :) Sure, there is evidence games are getting influenced. The Browns 2 wins back to back on multiple suspect calls at the end of those games were fishy enough! Like who would be the one doing the paying, anyway, a book keeper?

NFL definitely wants to make money like any business, that's why they schedule all these divisional games at the end of the year lol. They almost had their browns vs. bengals game mean something that they desperately wanted when they scheduled it there.

it's very possible these professional sports without money were all "real" but something might change when there is so much money involved.

The NBA only caught that one ref, it's a bad mark when they're caught for sure, they probably wished he wasn't caught and just retired! lol

If you let your mind wander on "too many people are involved", you can then think only the ones that are athletically capable of controlling a game are the ones in the know (curry who can make 150 3s in a row in practice, the QBs who can drop dimes with their eyes closed/etc). Or in other words, the ones that are paid 50x more than the average player lol. Everyone else is just trying their best lol.

I think refs (in NFL specifically) refereed in disregard with the score, who is home or away, who was supposed to win, etc - a lot of games going into the 4th quarter would already be over and the game would be turned off and people have left the stadium lol. I think the warriors were something like 30-8 at home and 8-30 away, at some point recently (within the last few years). They're professionals and home cooking matters that much? lol

Being rigged, influenced or cheating, some combination is probably occurring. Like belichick says if you're not trying ot cheat you're not trying to win. The Astros (I think) were caught recording pitch signals from the outfield right? It just doesn't stop lol. I wonder what % of games we watch are fair and square. I realize players cheating is entirely different than a game being influenced, but we should probably be as mad either way. When belichick made that statement it immediately made me think no wonder we lose because mike brown tries to play fair lol. Kobe used to say if the ref doesn't see it, it's not a foul.

Or rigged in the fact that they may nor be trying to select the winner but trying to make a good show. Calls or no calls specifically at the end of games to drive up scoring or help teams get a chance to score at the end.

(01-07-2024, 07:24 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Thank you for that info.  I stand corrected.

I will say though, as long as the refs keep going with these phantom calls that literally never even come close to actually happening I am going to believe something just isn't quite right.  I mean that intentional grounding that had the announcers going wtf, was not reversed even after a ref discussion.  Just too many fake calls to think something isn't up.  That doesn't mean it is the nfl fixing games.  Could be refs betting, completely and utterly incompetent, refs being threatened, etc.  I don't know.  I watched a lot of football this season and saw A LOT of fake calls and A LOT of announcers going wtf.

Refs are just bad, man. Across the board. Put 2 humans in striped shirts and you're going to get conflicting opinions on what a call is and what it should be. 

Now, put 7 humans on a football field, responsible for watching 22 exceptional athletes in action on every play. There's no way their eyes can be in the exact spot it should be on every play, when a good number of them aren't even looking where the ball is going to. Even when their eyes are in the right spot, they're not going to get the call right 100% of the time. Replay can only overturn certain designated plays.

(01-07-2024, 08:20 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Or rigged in the fact that they may nor be trying to select the winner but trying to make a good show. Calls or no calls specifically at the end of games to drive up scoring or help teams get a chance to score at the end.

I think that's believable, but I think it's in addition to refs somehow being involved in swaying a team to win (like multiple bad calls in Browns games to end them with CLE getting gifts lol).