(01-12-2024, 12:09 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I've  been pleading for this front office to draft a true burner
To make defenses pay dearly for doubling Chase and Higgins. Irwin is never going to take a hitch route, break 
A tackle and take it for a big YAC. 
This WR room needs a Marquis Brown / Tank Dell type 

Would Charlie Jones count as a "burner"?

(01-12-2024, 12:18 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Would Charlie Jones count as a "burner"?

Right now I'd say no. He might "fast" but I don't think 
He has the element in his game to be able stop on 
A dime , change direction and create missed tackles
I didn't even see a real 2nd gear out of him

(01-12-2024, 12:18 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Would Charlie Jones count as a "burner"?

What he run, a 4.43? Not really.

Teams literally didn’t let him get 1 v 1s

(01-12-2024, 08:51 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think that for some fans, if he's not burning the defense for 2 long TDs/game, it just isn't happening at all.    However, those electrifying long TDs are actually the result of several conditions all coming together at the same time.  He has to clearly be open (usually the easiest to achieve), other receivers have to draw enough attention from the defense to put Chase in single coverage, and the QB has to have enough time to sell that he's throwing a different direction before turning and hitting the wide open Chase in stride.

Right

It's just like "some people" see a CB get burned on a play and it's oh he's trash from then on. 

There's just been a bucket load of issues this and even parts of last season that's just threw a monkey in the wrench. But still he's done quite well. I'm not worried about JB or JC going forward. Just hoping we get the Oline fixed a little.

(01-12-2024, 12:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: What he run, a 4.43? Not really.

Yeah, it's borderline. A 4.43 is still really fast even for a receiver. The average 40 time for WRs is 4.51. Charlie Jones is in the 80th percentile for wide receiver 40 times so I guess it depends on what we classify as a burner but I think there is a difference between "burner" and "really fast". 

He's fast enough to be a deep threat, though. 

(01-12-2024, 12:33 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Right

It's just like "some people" see a CB get burned on a play and it's oh he's trash from then on. 

There's just been a bucket load of issues this and even parts of last season that's just threw a monkey in the wrench. But still he's done quite well. I'm not worried about JB or JC going forward. Just hoping we get the Oline fixed a little.

A lot of that will come on it's own, but it's going to take a bit of a philosophical adjustment in order to allow that to happen.  As Synric pointed out, a lot of what the Bengals want to accomplish by taking advantage of the cover 2, is predicated on being able to move the ball on the ground when those Safeties are playing back.  Until Zac gets the mindset that 'the Bengals are going to run the ball when they want/need to' defenses will still be dictating to our offense what they will be able to do.  

Some of the improvement in rushing can be achieved by better execution of orchestrated blocking on plays called, but the offense is still somewhat limited in what types of plays they can call by the skill sets and physical traits of the men playing OL.  For example, right now the Bengals can't really do a lot of wide zone attacking, due to a lack of lateral athleticism in the OL, thus leaving them only able to get better at executing inside power and short traps.

However it happens, it must happen that the Bengals move the ball better on the ground. Otherwise we're going to continue to see Burrow getting knocked around from having to hold the ball so long while the weapons are trying to shake double coverage and the DL is gunning full speed at him.

(01-12-2024, 12:53 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: A lot of that will come on it's own, but it's going to take a bit of a philosophical adjustment in order to allow that to happen.  As Synric pointed out, a lot of what the Bengals want to accomplish by taking advantage of the cover 2, is predicated on being able to move the ball on the ground when those Safeties are playing back.  Until Zac gets the mindset that 'the Bengals are going to run the ball when they want/need to' defenses will still be dictating to our offense what they will be able to do.  

Some of the improvement in rushing can be achieved by better execution of orchestrated blocking on plays called, but the offense is still somewhat limited in what types of plays they can call by the skill sets and physical traits of the men playing OL.  For example, right now the Bengals can't really do a lot of wide zone attacking, due to a lack of lateral athleticism in the OL, thus leaving them only able to get better at executing inside power and short traps.

However it happens, it must happen that the Bengals move the ball better on the ground. Otherwise we're going to continue to see Burrow getting knocked around from having to hold the ball so long while the weapons are trying to shake double coverage and the DL is gunning full speed at him.

To the bolded, I can almost assure you that Zac does have that mindset. It's a very standard way of getting a defense out of two high looks. The problem is Cincinnati can't do it. I've mentioned it in various posts but KC plays cover two as their base coverage. They are very often in middle field open. And during that game, Cincinnati tried to commit to running the ball on them. They just couldn't. 76 yards on 25 carries (3.04 YPC) isn't going to scare anyone. They'll take that all day. 

(01-12-2024, 12:57 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: To the bolded, I can almost assure you that Zac does have that mindset. It's a very standard way of getting a defense out of two high looks. The problem is Cincinnati can't do it. I've mentioned it in various posts but KC plays cover two as their base coverage. They are very often in middle field open. And during that game, Cincinnati tried to commit to running the ball on them. They just couldn't. 76 yards on 25 carries (3.04 YPC) isn't going to scare anyone. They'll take that all day. 

How do we fix that problem?? Is it just getting a better back than Mixon ? Is it we need upgrades in Oline players ? Is it blocking scheme ? 

I'm just a firm believer in the fact we have to get much, much better at running the ball, have too!!! For Chase and Burrow and Co. to really shine in the passing game.

(01-12-2024, 12:57 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: To the bolded, I can almost assure you that Zac does have that mindset. It's a very standard way of getting a defense out of two high looks. The problem is Cincinnati can't do it. I've mentioned it in various posts but KC plays cover two as their base coverage. They are very often in middle field open. And during that game, Cincinnati tried to commit to running the ball on them. They just couldn't. 76 yards on 25 carries (3.04 YPC) isn't going to scare anyone. They'll take that all day. 

he just doesnt run the ball and until hes consistant with that it wont matter...     More signs OL and run game need a new coach

(01-12-2024, 01:11 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: How do we fix that problem?? Is it just getting a better back than Mixon ? Is it we need upgrades in Oline players ? Is it blocking scheme ? 

I'm just a firm believer in the fact we have to get much, much better at running the ball, have too!!! For Chase and Burrow and Co. to really shine in the passing game.

All of the above. 

Plus you have to commit to it. The Bengals don't seem interested in committing to it and would rather use the short pass game as an extension of the run. 

And the short pass game as an extension of the run has worked at times. Defenses continue to press to defend quick passes and then we take them over the top. We did it multiple times this year with fake bubble screens to Chase. 

(01-12-2024, 12:47 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yeah, it's borderline. A 4.43 is still really fast even for a receiver. The average 40 time for WRs is 4.51. Charlie Jones is in the 80th percentile for wide receiver 40 times so I guess it depends on what we classify as a burner but I think there is a difference between "burner" and "really fast". 

He's fast enough to be a deep threat, though. 

Having that speed in the slot next year, with Chase Brown's speed out of the backfield, is going to be a breath of fresh air. Im pretty much sold on Chase Brown, think he is going to be a good back. 

Charlie Jones on the other hand...wish we would have evaluated him more down the stretch. Kind of a question mark. 

(01-12-2024, 01:11 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: How do we fix that problem?? Is it just getting a better back than Mixon ? Is it we need upgrades in Oline players ? Is it blocking scheme ? 

I'm just a firm believer in the fact we have to get much, much better at running the ball, have too!!! For Chase and Burrow and Co. to really shine in the passing game.

I do think most of the problem is in the RB room. I am not here to say that the OL is stellar and they could use some better athletes there but when it comes to the run game I think they take a little too much blame. Cincinnati doesn't really have anyone in their RB room that can make things happen 1 v. 1 other than maybe Chase Brown. Their backs are largely guys who are going to get you what is blocked for them and little more. If your RB gets to the boundary and has a matchup with a DB you should feel good about getting some extra yardage but these guys lose it more often than they win. 

The Bengals offense has multiple runs they utilize. Duos, which is generating double teams based on gap assignments and getting vertical to the backers. Pin and pull is there as well as some inside zone/outside zone. There's nothing wild about any of these. Every team runs them and Cincinnati is largely running gap plays since they don't have plus athletes on their line. They could upgrade those guys, sure but I don't think they are doing a bad job. They are just lacking a particular aspect in the RB room imo. 

(01-12-2024, 01:14 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: he just doesnt run the ball and until hes consistant with that it wont matter...     More signs OL and run game need a new coach

He doesn't run the ball as much because it isn't a point of strength for them. I think this is why we have seen a large uptick in RPOs this season as well as bubble screens. They are trying to get creative in extending the run game and getting some early down production because the actual run game isn't up to snuff. 

It's one thing to say "just run the ball consistently, it'll get better" and another to actually be in the game with a struggling rush offense trying to justify calling it again. If you're running the ball and being ineffective with it, you're not forcing the defense to react. Ideally, you want them to commit an extra player in the box so you can potentially get some explosives in the air. If you're averaging three yards per carry against a split safety look, the defense is going to be thrilled and stay right where they are at. 

(01-12-2024, 12:11 PM)Whatever Wrote: Achane had 800 yards and 8 TD's on only 103 carries, which is insane.

The 'fins have speed all over that offense and multiple guys that can score a TD from anywhere on the field.  Defenses have to respect that.

Speed kills.....

Some good points made here. I think fixing the O line is priority one. Helps with the run game and keeps Burrow protected. Hoping there’s a stud RT available at pick 18.

Someone mentioned Hollywood Brown and he’s a free agent.
Tag/trade Tee and sign Hollywood for what should be a lot less $?

(01-12-2024, 01:11 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: How do we fix that problem?? Is it just getting a better back than Mixon ? Is it we need upgrades in Oline players ? Is it blocking scheme ? 

The RB room is an issue 2023 Joe Mixon is just not 2018 Joe Mixon it is what it is... The room as a whole outside of flashes from Chase Brown needs a rebuild.

Another position group that needs a rebuild is the Tight Ends. The last two seasons the Bengals have rotated a pass catching TE and a run blocking TE which showed some tendencies. Bringing in a more well rounded motion TE for a spread offense can give them more play, pre-snap motion, and matchup versatility. 

They have a chance to upgrade the OL through the Right Tackle position they could go get another veteran B-rated FA but this draft class could give them the possibility of a real difference maker on the OL and maybe someone to groom on the interior.

Edit: The Slot Receiver position could use some improved blocking. Which was a big on the rpo bubbles this year they really didn't have a skill position player outside of Tee that could block and he was usually lined up opposite side of the bubble screen. In the Jags game I was hoping they would throw Iosivas out there and just tell him to block for Chase.

(01-12-2024, 01:38 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: He doesn't run the ball as much because it isn't a point of strength for them. I think this is why we have seen a large uptick in RPOs this season as well as bubble screens. They are trying to get creative in extending the run game and getting some early down production because the actual run game isn't up to snuff. 

It's one thing to say "just run the ball consistently, it'll get better" and another to actually be in the game with a struggling rush offense trying to justify calling it again. If you're running the ball and being ineffective with it, you're not forcing the defense to react. Ideally, you want them to commit an extra player in the box so you can potentially get some explosives in the air. If you're averaging three yards per carry against a split safety look, the defense is going to be thrilled and stay right where they are at. 

People think that if you just run the ball, you'll wear down the defense and running will get easier.  That's true IF you can run the ball and keep your offense on the field.  You can run-run-pass all day and you aren't wearing anything down if you keep going 3 and out.  You have to keep the offense on the field to give your D time to rest and make adjustments.  

On another note with explosive plays in the run game, I think we kind of learned after Brown started getting some carries that Mixon is definitely leaving a lot of chunk yardage on the field.

(01-12-2024, 02:19 PM)Synric Wrote: The RB room is an issue 2023 Joe Mixon is just not 2018 Joe Mixon it is what it is... The room as a whole outside of flashes from Chase Brown needs a rebuild.

Another position group that needs a rebuild is the Tight Ends. The last two seasons the Bengals have rotated a pass catching TE and a run blocking TE which showed some tendencies. Bringing in a more well rounded motion TE for a spread offense can give them more play, pre-snap motion, and matchup versatility. 

They have a chance to upgrade the OL through the Right Tackle position they could go get another veteran B-rated FA but this draft class could give them the possibility of a real difference maker on the OL and maybe someone to groom on the interior.

Edit: The Slot Receiver position could use some improved blocking. Which was a big on the rpo bubbles this year they really didn't have a skill position player outside of Tee that could block and he was usually lined up opposite side of the bubble screen. In the Jags game I was hoping they would throw Iosivas out there and just tell him to block for Chase.

The club's unwillingness to invest serious draft capital/FA dollars into RB, TE, and WR has really hurt this offense and made it one dimensional.

RT should get taken care of in the 1st.  There's just too many good prospects who should be available to really whiff at that draft position.

TE should be handled in FA.  If it isn't, we're pretty hosed with the current TE class.  If Bowers fell to us by some miracle, we basically have to pray that one of the Top 50 OT's makes it to us in the 2nd.

RB, there's some good prospects who should be available in 3-4.  It's a very good FA group, as well.

WR, I think they will FT Tee and kick that can down the road and look for a WR3 in the draft.  

I guess I should have included the main stat that shows this.
2021 AVG per catch: 18
2022: 12.2
2023: 12

This isn’t a this year problem like many of you are writing it off to be. I just don’t like this trend and I guess I’m looking at Zac. I don’t like the way we e used him the last two years. Too much possession stuff. He’s a dynamic big play threat and that’s how he lit up the league in 2021. For him to be worth the money we’re about to pay him the coaches need to get back to that. That’s our recipe for success on offense.