(01-17-2024, 01:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: and that Browning was maybe a better playcaller then Burrow......

Negative Ghostrider.... Browning has said he runs the plays that Zac sends in. He is not receiving three and choosing like Burrow does.

(01-17-2024, 03:09 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Negative Ghostrider.... Browning has said he runs the plays that Zac sends in. He is not receiving three and choosing like Burrow does.

Well maybe that is what Burrow needs to do. It’s interesting. Less then 2 weeks into the offseason and folks have already forgot the hopefully Burrow learned something from watching Browning run the offense narrative we heard so much around here.

(01-17-2024, 03:16 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well maybe that is what Burrow needs to do. It’s interesting. Less then 2 weeks into the offseason and folks have already forgot the hopefully Burrow learned something from watching Browning run the offense narrative we heard so much around here.

I hope he did. He always has room to improve. I hope he saw how well things moved from under center, and that maybe the calls Zac puts in are the correct ones.

(01-17-2024, 02:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Personally, I think that Zac and company saw in the first Pittsburgh game that Browning out of the gun was not even remotely capable of running the spread like Burrow does.  The transition to mostly under Center was something that most teams did not have a lot of footage of the Bengals, let along Jake Browning running.  Sure, Browning was able to get the team to rally with him, and they reeled off a few wins to keep the season interesting.  However, against tougher defenses like KC and Baltimore, the Browning led offense just had no answer.

I don't think there ever was? PFR has Browning as having 28 pass attempts from under center and 215 in shotgun. If you look at highlights..











...there's some instances of him having success under center. Particularly in the Colts game with faking the handoff and then throwing to the RB anyway. It's majority shotgun still. Maybe it shouldn't have been as PFR has him with a 92.6 QB Rating (barely above the 89.0 average) in shotgun and a 142.1 QB Rating under center.

Still much more under center than Burrow, who was at 350 passes in shotgun and 15 under center. Burrow also had a higher QB Rating under center this year. Heck, he has a career QB Rating of 98.0 in shotgun and 107.5 under center.

(01-17-2024, 03:20 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't think there ever was? PFR has Browning as having 28 pass attempts from under center and 215 in shotgun. If you look at highlights..

...there's some instances of him having success under center. Particularly in the Colts game with faking the handoff and then throwing to the RB anyway. It's majority shotgun still. Maybe it shouldn't have been as PFR has him with a 92.6 QB Rating (barely above the 89.0 average) in shotgun and a 142.1 QB Rating under center.

There definitely never was. The Bengals were in shotgun on 75% of snaps this season when Browning was the QB. Last season, Burrow was in shotgun on 78% of snaps. 

This whole conversation around shotgun/under center is so wild to me because it looks like people believe it is this brand new thing with the Bengals and ZT and it isn't. In 2021, Burrow was in shotgun on 64% of snaps. This team has never been a shotgun only team except for when Burrow was struggling with an injury and shortly after his recovery. They very obviously want to incorporate both looks but couldn't because of a very specific situation. 

(01-17-2024, 03:25 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: There definitely never was. The Bengals were in shotgun on 75% of snaps this season when Browning was the QB. Last season, Burrow was in shotgun on 78% of snaps. 

This whole conversation around shotgun/under center is so wild to me because it looks like people believe it is this brand new thing with the Bengals and ZT and it isn't. In 2021, Burrow was in shotgun on 64% of snaps. This team has never been a shotgun only team except for when Burrow was struggling with an injury and shortly after his recovery. They very obviously want to incorporate both looks but couldn't because of a very specific situation. 

That's an entirely different problem. That means a vast majority of the time we're not in shotgun we're running and the vast majority of the time we're in shotgun we're passing, which opposing teams are definitely going to know.

Under Center
2023: 131 rushes/44 pass attempts
2022: 197 rushes/54 pass attempts
2021: 306 rushes/82 pass attempts

Shotgun
2023: 252 rushes/571 pass attempts
2022: 205 rushes/560 pass attempts
2021: 130 rushes/473 pass attempts

(01-17-2024, 03:36 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That's an entirely different problem. That means a vast majority of the time we're not in shotgun we're running and the vast majority of the time we're in shotgun we're passing, which opposing teams are definitely going to know.

Under Center
2023: 131 rushes/44 pass attempts
2022: 197 rushes/54 pass attempts
2021: 306 rushes/82 pass attempts

Shotgun
2023: 252 rushes/571 pass attempts
2022: 205 rushes/560 pass attempts
2021: 130 rushes/473 pass attempts

It's not as big of an issue as you might think. I had posted this in a different thread but pretty much all NFL teams have splits like this. When you break it down into percentages, Cincinnati is nearly dead on league average. Across the NFL, teams run the ball roughly 70% of the time when they go under center. Cincinnati is exactly at 70%. In shotgun, the NFL runs 30% of the time. Cincinnati runs 29% of the time. You have slightly different numbers than I do but the story should be the same across the NFL. 

These percentages surprise me, but the one thing I noticed and I am sure Defenses noticed was that under Center we were far less
predictable as TLL's post alludes to. I can only speak for myself, but in the Shotgun the Offense just looked so much more predictable
to me and we struggled much more there from what I saw.

I just watched the Packers with Jordan Love beat the Cowboys down in their stadium and I didn't know what was coming as Love was
playing a lot under Center and the Cowboys Defense was basically guessing at what the Packers were going to do and they guessed
wrong a lot of the time. I only saw that a couple games this season, the 49ers game and instances here and there with our Offense.

The Burrow injury construes everything, but being in the Shotgun a lot puts a lot of pressure on the OL and they have to play passive
instead of aggressive.

(01-17-2024, 03:58 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It's not as big of an issue as you might think. I had posted this in a different thread but pretty much all NFL teams have splits like this. When you break it down into percentages, Cincinnati is nearly dead on league average. Across the NFL, teams run the ball roughly 70% of the time when they go under center. Cincinnati is exactly at 70%. In shotgun, the NFL runs 30% of the time. Cincinnati runs 29% of the time. You have slightly different numbers than I do but the story should be the same across the NFL. 

The "Under Center" became a thing only because Joe Burrow could not do it at all the first 4 weeks. We forget to mention during that span the average depth of target was around 3 yards. It was a super limiting offense because Burrow could not put any pressure on that calf.

The stats are interesting to analyze.

Who wants to provide me with a breakdown of how it looked in the 49'ers game this season? If that offense showed up weekly, we'd roll into the playoffs with ease.

(01-17-2024, 04:16 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: The stats are interesting analysis.

Who wants to provide me with a breakdown of how it looked in the 49'ers game this season? If that offense showed up weekly, we'd roll into the playoffs with ease.

No doubt, that is what makes me curious. That Offense against the 49ers was the one I was hoping to see the rest of the season.

Too bad Burrow hurt his wrist, but maybe it will help him in the future realizing that being in the Shotgun all the time can hamper the OL 
and the running game while putting more pressure on himself then needs be. Love the new avatar BTW Tecmo lol

(01-17-2024, 04:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Love the new avatar BTW Tecmo lol

Thanks dude. It's not from Tecmo Super Bowl, but keeps the 8-bit/'90s Nintendo vibe going strong. Burrow has eclipsed Chad Johnson, Boomer Esiason, and David Fulcher as my all-time favorite Bengals player.

(01-17-2024, 04:10 PM)Synric Wrote: The "Under Center" became a thing only because Joe Burrow could not do it at all the first 4 weeks. We forget to mention during that span the average depth of target was around 3 yards. It was a super limiting offense because Burrow could not put any pressure on that calf.

Absolutely. Is going shotgun 100% of the time an issue? I would say yeah. It's not ideal, you're missing a rich variety of offense by not going under center. However, that was a byproduct of Burrow's injury, and Burrow's injury is also what caused the offense to suck. He had a very limited ability to throw the ball. It's now ballooned into this big debate about the two looks when it is simply an exception that occurred due to injury. 

(01-17-2024, 06:15 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Absolutely. Is going shotgun 100% of the time an issue? I would say yeah. It's not ideal, you're missing a rich variety of offense by not going under center. However, that was a byproduct of Burrow's injury, and Burrow's injury is also what caused the offense to suck. He had a very limited ability to throw the ball. It's now ballooned into this big debate about the two looks when it is simply an exception that occurred due to injury. 

In other words, the offense is pretty good if your quarterback is at near full health. I mean, Browning was putting up 300+ in the air, and occasionally running for big gains. The offense looked pretty good the limited time Joe was feeling halfway decent. 

(01-17-2024, 03:58 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It's not as big of an issue as you might think. I had posted this in a different thread but pretty much all NFL teams have splits like this. When you break it down into percentages, Cincinnati is nearly dead on league average. Across the NFL, teams run the ball roughly 70% of the time when they go under center. Cincinnati is exactly at 70%. In shotgun, the NFL runs 30% of the time. Cincinnati runs 29% of the time. You have slightly different numbers than I do but the story should be the same across the NFL. 

That’s exactly right.

(01-17-2024, 04:55 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Thanks dude. It's not from Tecmo Super Bowl, but keeps the 8-bit/'90s Nintendo vibe going strong. Burrow has eclipsed Chad Johnson, Boomer Esiason, and David Fulcher as my all-time favorite Bengals player.

Atta boy! Embrace him! lol

He's still #3 behind Whitworth and Dunlap for me, but what I said when he was drafted still rings true: he'll probably move up to #2 VERY soon.

Whitworth is untouchable

Predictability vs doing what gives you the best chance for success is an age old debate. So if Chase gets doubled are you never going to throw to him? By using Drew Sample as the third down back allow you a better chance of providing the QB longer to hit our great wideouts? Miami may be the most unpredictable team in the NFL. How’s that playing out? The offense is efficient. Despite protection issues and a poor running attack in ‘21 & ‘22 we were #8 in points per play. The only 2 teams ahead of us both years? SF & the Bills.

Joe Burrow's healthy return is the biggest reason for the #Bengals to be optimistic about 2024, but so, too, is a key but often looked stat -- one in which Cincinnati has been best in the league since Zac Taylor arrived:https://t.co/J4uCKCSwgc pic.twitter.com/IQJA86lkP0

— Jay Morrison (@ByJayMorrison) January 12, 2024

(01-18-2024, 01:35 AM)Wyche Wrote: In other words, the offense is pretty good if your quarterback is at near full health. I mean, Browning was putting up 300+ in the air, and occasionally running for big gains. The offense looked pretty good the limited time Joe was feeling halfway decent. 

Yes, not going to argue with that. Burrow looked like he was only healthy for about 3 or 4 games for heck sake.

Puts a ton of pressure on an OL and Offense in general when you have to always be in the Shotgun because your QB cannot put his back to the 
Defense or roll out. If we do not move on from Pollack, I think this will just have to be my hope, that we add the proper players and they stay 
healthy enough to play more than halfway decent.

Have to say, that after seeing Browning play, maybe we should of started him at the beginning of the season but hindsight is 20/20 yah know...

(01-18-2024, 03:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yes, not going to argue with that. Burrow looked like he was only healthy for about 3 or 4 games for heck sake.

Puts a ton of pressure on an OL and Offense in general when you have to always be in the Shotgun because your QB cannot put his back to the 
Defense or roll out. If we do not move on from Pollack, I think this will just have to be my hope, that we add the proper players and they stay 
healthy enough to play more than halfway decent.

Have to say, that after seeing Browning play, maybe we should of started him at the beginning of the season but is hindsight 20/20 yah know...

Yes, hindsight shows that to be a mistake. He was a complete unknown, and I don't think they trusted him. They should've. Joe of course said he was good to go, and the 100 % shotgun and short dump offs shows they didn't trust his word fully either, lol.