Most fans are correct in thinking that the O line should be priority #1. It’s still not nearly good enough and this is a prime year to upgrade for less $ by drafting one and letting Jonah leave. Like someone said, now they have improved to mediocre so the next level to is get a good O line. If you are going to pay that much to your franchise QB then you need to do everything you can to protect him.

DT should be priority #2. If you want to talk about draft capital invested then the look at the past 2 drafts. O line picks are nothing compared to all of the high picks they have used on the defense. Not a lot of spots on D to change besides maybe 1 DT spot. They used all of these picks on the kids so they are going to have to be coached up and play much better. That’s where the improvement on the defense has to come from.

(01-27-2024, 07:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, 2013-2023 has been pretty damn rough in terms of drafting:

T- Jonah Williams   1st
T- Cedric Ogbuehi   1st
T- Jake Fisher   2nd
T- Jackson Carman   2nd
T- D'Ante Smith   4th
T- Hakeem Adeniji   6th
T- Reid Fragel   7th

G- Cordell Volson   4th
G- Michael Jordan   4th
G- Tanner Hawkinson   5th
G- Christian Westerman   5th  
G- Trey Hill   6th 
G- Rod Taylor   7th

C- Billy Price   1st
C- Russell Bodine   4th
C- JJ Deilman   5th
C- TJ Johnson   7th

So basically, in 11 seasons, the Cincinnati Bengals have a grand total of FIVE draft picks in the top three rounds for five positions . . . and the best of those five is Jonah Williams.

(01-27-2024, 08:57 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I think Mike skimps out on o-line scouting in particular. Wasn’t he on record saying he doesn’t want to pay guards? I heard he said that

One of the biggest issues with Mike Brown and the o-line is his inability to get over the amazing success that McNally had with very late round draft picks early in his career. In his mind, there's plenty of quality that slips through the cracks. Zeitler had zero Pro Bowls with the Bengals and was rewarded with the largest contract ever for a guard at the time. I don't think that he likes to invest in a highly rated interior lineman that everyone knows before the draft and keeps their eyes on him heading into FA. In his approach, it might be easier to re-sign a late rounder that ''grew into the system'' than it would be to re-sign a blue chip first rounder that never sniffed a Pro Bowl because ''maybe it's just not the right fit''.

Looking at the coaching staff, it's clear that the Offensive and head coaches came up through the WR/QB coaching ranks. The staff has exactly two coaches who have ever coached OL, Pollack, the OL coach, and Frazier, the assistant OL coach. The RB coach had one college coaching year as a "run game coordinator". On defense there is more cross-over with coaches having had college DC roles and multiple position groups (still thin at DL coaching) The Bengals lean heavily on their coaches for scouting, and the overall Bengals coaching experience is very thin at OL and DL.
One of my complaints about the OL is that they never seem to get better or even stay the same. Other units can occasionally hit gold with late picks and at least have a solid hit rate in the top 3 rounds. It makes me question if the team knows what they are doing. If they have bad coaching, would they even know it?

(01-27-2024, 11:47 PM)puddycat Wrote: Looking at the coaching staff, it's clear that the Offensive and head coaches came up through the WR/QB coaching ranks. The staff has exactly two coaches who have ever coached OL, Pollack, the OL coach, and Frazier, the assistant OL coach. The RB coach had one college coaching year as a "run game coordinator". On defense there is more cross-over with coaches having had college DC roles and multiple position groups (still thin at DL coaching) The Bengals lean heavily on their coaches for scouting, and the overall Bengals coaching experience is very thin at OL and DL.
One of my complaints about the OL is that they never seem to get better or even stay the same. Other units can occasionally hit gold with late picks and at least have a solid hit rate in the top 3 rounds. It makes me question if the team knows what they are doing. If they have bad coaching, would they even know it?

Theirs an evaluation and scheme problem. Zac needs an OL coach that can scheme the run games and scheme opponents. Doesn’t seem like Pollacks the guy

(01-27-2024, 04:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Welll...We've tried high draft choices, we've tried top FAs, and they're not firing the Oline coach.

So, maybe our approach should be quit trying to fix it. 

Have we really? 

I mean, in the ZT era (5 years), out #1 picks have been: LT (Williams), QB (Burrow), WR (Chase), S (Hill), and DE (Murphy). The one #1 was pre-Burrow. 

#2s: TE (D. Sample), WR (Higgins), OT>G (Carman), CB (CTB), CB (Turner), 

3rd round: LB (Pratt), LB (Wilson), DE (Ossai), DE>DT (Carter), S (Battle). 

Of our 15 Day 1 or Day 2 picks, here is the total: 

WR: 2: Chase, Higgins 
DE: 2: Murphy, Ossai
S: 2: Hill, Battle
CB: 2: CTB, Turner 
LB: 2: Pratt, Wilson
QB: 1: Burrow
OT: 1: Jonah (pre-Burrow,) 
IOL: 1: Carman (the plan was G) 
TE: 1: D. Sample 
DT: 1: Carter 

We have spent in FA (Cappa, Karras, Collins, Brown) but not so much in the draft. Day 3 picks: Jordan, Adeniji, Smith, Hill, Volson. But not prime picks. 

I get it, we wanted quick fixes to help Joe NOW. But with no prime OTs in FA, it is time to spend draft capital. Prime draft capital. Deep OT class. A lot of analysts have 7-8 OTs in their top 25. We pick 18. Pick one..

(01-27-2024, 04:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Welll...We've tried high draft choices, we've tried top FAs, and they're not firing the Oline coach.

So, maybe our approach should be quit trying to fix it. 

Maybe change the type of player you sign and draft.

(01-27-2024, 02:58 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: We've been putting resources into this offensive line since 2020 and the line has looked no different from the superbowl team..we cannot afford to keep putting resources into this line when we are not seeing return on the investment, either Zac has to change his scheme to fit the strengths of these guys or we simply need to find another oline coach that simple..The defense needs help we must do something to get this defense up to par or we'll never make the post season again..

The division is just too good to have a lack luster defense, that's the area we regressed the most and the singular most important reason the season went the way it did..I know there's folks in our fan base that wants to put more resources into the oline but before that happens please take a look all We've done for the line up until this point..Orlando brown jr,Alex cappa, Ted karrass,Cordell volston via draft, Jackson Carmen via draft smith a 4th rd pick..That's alot of capital and attention being paid to line and We've gotten no return on the investment pff graded them the 26th best line absolutely unacceptable..

Fire Pollack.

(01-28-2024, 02:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Fire Pollack.

I wish I knew why they don't.

If we dont draft Defense all around, this team doesnt deserve to go to the playoffs. Lou deserves most of the picks this time around.

(01-28-2024, 03:07 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: If we dont draft Defense all around, this team doesnt deserve to go to the playoffs. Lou deserves most of the picks this time around.

That's exactly what I would do..we must get better defensively to compete in this division,no way we can go anywhere moving forward playing defense the way we did this year..Personally I don't think the offensive line is our problem on offense the problem has always been Zac Taylor and his desire to be unbalanced, the guy has never been committed to finding balance point blank period..it's like he's allergic to calling running plays in some games..From a total scheme perspective it's nothing creative about Zac and his running game,Running the football should be a huge focal point this off-season we're much better when we're running the football..

(01-28-2024, 02:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Fire Pollack.

That’s the answer.

Here’s why: The Bengals have retooled the offensive line personnel several times over yet the line still stinks. The players under Frank Pollack’s tutelage changed yet Joe Burrow still gets hurt, Joe Mixon gets stuffed like a Thanksgiving turkey, and plays get blown up.

The linemen excelled in college and on other NFL teams yet in Cincinnati they flounder. This underachieving performance is 100% on the coaches. The Front Office needs to pay top dollar to attract some serious talent to coach the offensive line because the current crew has cost the team at least one Super Bowl win.

With better offensive line play I sincerely believe there would be two Lombardi Trophies on display at Paycor Stadium and the Bengals would be well on their way of winning a third one in 2024-25.

(01-28-2024, 03:07 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: If we dont draft Defense all around, this team doesnt deserve to go to the playoffs. Lou deserves most of the picks this time around.

Amen. AFC North teams need a shutdown defense. Unfortunately Zac Taylor rebuilt the Bengals to be competitive in the NFC West.

(01-28-2024, 03:38 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Amen. AFC North teams need a shutdown defense. Unfortunately Zac Taylor rebuilt the Bengals to be competitive in the NFC West.

You don’t need a great defense to be competitive in the afc north. A stud o-line can counteract great defenses. 2005 bengals for example

So with that said, yea they’re better off focusing on defense for now. But Karras and Cappa are gonna need replacing soon

(01-28-2024, 03:07 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: If we dont draft Defense all around, this team doesnt deserve to go to the playoffs. Lou deserves most of the picks this time around.

In the last 2 years we've had 6 picks in the Top 3 Rds. EVERY pick has been on the defensive side.

2022 we drafted 1 player on the offense.

(01-28-2024, 03:38 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Amen.  AFC North teams need a shutdown defense.  Unfortunately Zac Taylor rebuilt the Bengals to be competitive in the NFC West.

This was the first time in 3 years we didn't win the AFC North. I'd attribute it more to losing key players than the talent/style he has assembled. 

(01-28-2024, 04:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This was the first time in 3 years we didn't win the AFC North. I'd attribute it more to losing key players than the talent/style he has assembled. 

This is alarming, means we're slacking in the replacement category. Gotta replace with someone equal or better to who you are losing. Time to right the ship.

(01-28-2024, 04:47 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: This is alarming, means we're slacking in the replacement category. Gotta replace with someone equal or better to who you are losing. Time to right the ship.

it's not alarming. it's extremely rare for an afc north team to win that divsion 3 times in a row

(01-28-2024, 04:58 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: it's not alarming. it's extremely rare for an afc north team to win that divsion 3 times in a row

I think he may have quoted the wrong post. 

The story of the line this season is not as simple as one might think. Just some items:

With Burrow there were 23 sacks in 9.5 game for a 2.3 per game average. And this was with the calf issues.

With Browning there were 27 sacks in 7.5 games for a 3.6 per game average. And a LOT of these sacks were Browning holding the ball way too long.

Running wise despite some games that looked okay the overall result was not the best. That said, there are things to consider:

Good run games require more run plays to get warmed up and into some kind of groove. We averaged 36 drop backs and 22 rushes per game for 62% pass and 38% rush. And let's remember that QB scrambles count as rushes in that so the real imbalance is higher. Burrow and Browning account for 58 rush attempts or 3.4 per game - how many are designed and how many scrambles?

I think the defense needs more work and on offense just style the scheme to emphasize what our players do well - we saw this against SF and the Colts for example but the injuries (Burrow calf then going out) pretty much derailed it.

(01-28-2024, 04:58 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: it's not alarming. it's extremely rare for an afc north team to win that divsion 3 times in a row

we can be the ones to change that trend, especially with Burrow now. Kinda like the pats did during the Brady years.