(01-27-2024, 07:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, 2013-2023 has been pretty damn rough in terms of drafting:

T- Jonah Williams   1st
T- Cedric Ogbuehi   1st
T- Jake Fisher   2nd
T- Jackson Carman   2nd
T- D'Ante Smith   4th
T- Hakeem Adeniji   6th
T- Reid Fragel   7th

G- Cordell Volson   4th
G- Michael Jordan   4th
G- Tanner Hawkinson   5th
G- Christian Westerman   5th  
G- Trey Hill   6th 
G- Rod Taylor   7th

C- Billy Price   1st
C- Russell Bodine   4th
C- JJ Deilman   5th
C- TJ Johnson   7th

The Price pick hurts... just noticed that Ragnock (sic) is still with the Lions... I remember it was him or Price for Center when we drafted, the Lions made the right pick, I think they were only 2 ahead of us. Should have just skipped on Price overall.

(01-27-2024, 09:16 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

And people really think another coaching change will fix things. Duke needs to fundamentally change the way he drafts OL.

I think the type of player Pollack wants doesn't fit well with the offensive playcalling Taylor wants.

Pollack wants "glass eaters," but in most cases those guys fit better in run-heavy gap scheme offenses.
That's not the kind of offense the Bengals are ever going to run as long as Joe Burrow is the QB.

(01-28-2024, 09:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think the type of player Pollack wants doesn't fit well with the offensive playcalling Taylor wants.

Pollack wants "glass eaters," but in most cases those guys fit better in run-heavy gap scheme offenses.
That's not the kind of offense the Bengals are ever going to run as long as Joe Burrow is the QB.

They’ve been drafting bad athletes long before Pollack got here though. Duke seems to like a certain type as well. Ironically enough Ogbuehi was probably the most athletic OL he’s drafted in the last decade or so.

(01-28-2024, 09:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: They’ve been drafting bad athletes long before Pollack got here though. Duke seems to like a certain type as well. Ironically enough Ogbuehi was probably the most athletic OL he’s drafted in the last decade or so.

Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Jonah were all good athletes for OTs.

(01-28-2024, 09:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: They’ve been drafting bad athletes long before Pollack got here though. Duke seems to like a certain type as well. Ironically enough Ogbuehi was probably the most athletic OL he’s drafted in the last decade or so.

It does make me question how “bad” Pollack actually is. I know that may be a controversial opinion. The offense that Cincinnati runs is tough on offensive linemen, constantly asking them to block on an island with how often they send five out into routes. None of the linemen are very good athletes which you can work with better on the interior but a guy like Orlando Brown gets exposed on the edge by himself.

Pollack is a wide zone guy. He wants good athletes, and I’m sure he has had input on the draft and FA but he hasn’t received the good athletes he covets which is why Cincinnati has switched to gap primarily. When I watch back games during the off-season, I am often seeing the running backs leaving yardage on the field. Not fast enough to turn the corner, not breaking tackles. That doesn’t mean the offensive line is always playing it perfectly, but I point to the RBs more than the line.

Pollack may end up being fired and I won’t complain about that but I also think with the offensive philosophy Cincinnati has, and RB room, I don’t see the results getting much better with a different coach. I think Burrow is consistently going to be towards the top on sacks taken and pressure due to both his play style and the offense built for him.

(01-28-2024, 08:12 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: The Price pick hurts... just noticed that Ragnock (sic) is still with the Lions... I remember it was him or Price for Center when we drafted, the Lions made the right pick, I think they were only 2 ahead of us. Should have just skipped on Price overall.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/4/24/17277034/dave-lapham-predicts-bengals-will-draft-frank-ragnow-in-round-1

I wonder if they stopped sharing so much info with Lapham after that.

(01-28-2024, 10:03 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It does make me question how “bad” Pollack actually is. I know that may be a controversial opinion. The offense that Cincinnati runs is tough on offensive linemen, constantly asking them to block on an island with how often they send five out into routes. None of the linemen are very good athletes which you can work with better on the interior but a guy like Orlando Brown gets exposed on the edge by himself.

Pollack is a wide zone guy. He wants good athletes, and I’m sure he has had input on the draft and FA but he hasn’t received the good athletes he covets which is why Cincinnati has switched to gap primarily. When I watch back games during the off-season, I am often seeing the running backs leaving yardage on the field. Not fast enough to turn the corner, not breaking tackles. That doesn’t mean the offensive line is always playing it perfectly, but I point to the RBs more than the line.

Pollack may end up being fired and I won’t complain about that but I also think with the offensive philosophy Cincinnati has, and RB room, I don’t see the results getting much better with a different coach. I think Burrow is consistently going to be towards the top on sacks taken and pressure due to both his play style and the offense built for him.

Thank you!

I wish people would understand just how OL unfriendly this offense is. Also that our backs left a goodly large number of yards and first downs on the field from both lack of speed and inability to break tackles. Fire Pollack if you want, I don't think it will matter unless they also change the offense to match the player skillsets better. 

Maybe Pitcher will bring something different to help protection and the run game.

(01-28-2024, 10:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Jonah were all good athletes for OTs.

Ogbuehi didn't test do to injury, Fisher had a pretty good RAS, and Jonah had a bad performance( outside of 40)according to RAS . https://www.google.com/amp/s/ras.football/2020/01/04/jonah-williams-ras/%3famp 

(01-29-2024, 10:19 AM)IcoHolic Wrote: Maybe Pitcher will bring something different to help protection and the run game.

Doubtful, as Pitcher came up through the ranks as a scout, then WR and QB guy.  

(01-29-2024, 10:19 AM)IcoHolic Wrote: Maybe Pitcher will bring something different to help protection and the run game.

(01-29-2024, 11:44 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Doubtful, as Pitcher came up through the ranks as a scout, then WR and QB guy.  

On top of the fact that Pollack is the run game coordinator, meaning it doesn't fall into the OC hands.  Perhaps Pitcher will try to be more involved than Callahan, but none of us really know the dynamic between the coaches.

(01-29-2024, 12:15 PM)Stewy Wrote: On top of the fact that Pollack is the run game coordinator, meaning it doesn't fall into the OC hands.  Perhaps Pitcher will try to be more involved than Callahan, but none of us really know the dynamic between the coaches.

I ultimately hope it is Zac as the head coach that finds a way to adapt when leading Pitcher and Pollack. During yesterday's Cheifs/Ravens game, when the Chiefs were in 3 TE sets, the announcers spoked to Reid's ability to adapt as his roster has changed. If Zac proves capable as Reid in this area then we'll continue to contend with a healthy Burrow at QB.

(01-28-2024, 10:03 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It does make me question how “bad” Pollack actually is. I know that may be a controversial opinion. The offense that Cincinnati runs is tough on offensive linemen, constantly asking them to block on an island with how often they send five out into routes. None of the linemen are very good athletes which you can work with better on the interior but a guy like Orlando Brown gets exposed on the edge by himself.

Pollack is a wide zone guy. He wants good athletes, and I’m sure he has had input on the draft and FA but he hasn’t received the good athletes he covets which is why Cincinnati has switched to gap primarily. When I watch back games during the off-season, I am often seeing the running backs leaving yardage on the field. Not fast enough to turn the corner, not breaking tackles. That doesn’t mean the offensive line is always playing it perfectly, but I point to the RBs more than the line.

Pollack may end up being fired and I won’t complain about that but I also think with the offensive philosophy Cincinnati has, and RB room, I don’t see the results getting much better with a different coach. I think Burrow is consistently going to be towards the top on sacks taken and pressure due to both his play style and the offense built for him.

The issue I have with this is that the Bengals coaches also do a good amount of scouting.  As the OL coach, it's his job to scout and recommend guys that fit his scheme and the offense.  For example, I remember an interview he did where he said that Tobin asked him to look at and see if he could use Orlando Brown Jr. and he was enthusiastically all for it.  

Wide zone heavy schemes require good athletes, but everything out of the guy's mouth is "glass eaters".  I wonder if he's prioritizing that "glass eater" trait(whatever that means) over the athletic tools he needs to run his preferred scheme in evaluations.  

However, the quickest, easiest run game fix is addressing the RB position.  Our backs leave so much yardage on the field it's not even funny, especially since they constantly face light boxes as teams sit back in 2 deep zone with their S's all game.  Getting a legit RB threat that can actually make teams pay for sitting light in the box would do a lot of good for this offense as it gradually moves towards getting better athletes as contracts expire.

(01-28-2024, 08:12 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: The Price pick hurts... just noticed that Ragnock (sic) is still with the Lions... I remember it was him or Price for Center when we drafted, the Lions made the right pick, I think they were only 2 ahead of us. Should have just skipped on Price overall.

lol BJ Hill was the 69th pick that year…

(01-28-2024, 03:28 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: That's exactly what I would do..we must get better defensively to compete in this division,no way we can go anywhere moving forward playing defense the way we did this year..Personally I don't think the offensive line is our problem on offense the problem has always been Zac Taylor and his desire to be unbalanced, the guy has never been committed to finding balance point blank period..it's like he's allergic to calling running plays in some games..From a total scheme perspective it's nothing creative about Zac and his running game,Running the football should be a huge focal point this off-season we're much better when we're running the football..

Our line has sucked since 2016 though....look at those bust draft picks. 

(01-29-2024, 12:22 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I ultimately hope it is Zac as the head coach that finds a way to adapt when leading Pitcher and Pollack. During yesterday's Cheifs/Ravens game, when the Chiefs were in 3 TE sets, the announcers spoked to Reid's ability to adapt as his roster has changed. If Zac proves capable as Reid in this area then we'll continue to contend with a healthy Burrow at QB.

KC's offense was anemic after their first few drives.  They were basically able to sit in 2-3 TE sets due to the fact they were up by 2 possessions almost all game as the D bailed them out again and again.  

(01-29-2024, 01:13 PM)Wyche Wrote: Our line has sucked since 2016 though....look at those bust draft picks. 

YUP

I look at it from a center of gravity perspective. What is our center of gravity? DUH Joe Burrow !! That's our thing to build around.

We're not going to win because we have the best MLB in football or whatever else ?? We're going to win because we have a system in place to allow Joe Burrow to flourish which means -  time to throw. Which means good, above average Oline.

That's all.

(01-29-2024, 01:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: KC's offense was anemic after their first few drives.  They were basically able to sit in 2-3 TE sets due to the fact they were up by 2 possessions almost all game as the D bailed them out again and again.  

My point wasn't meant to exemplify the Chief's performance in one game or discuss situational football. The announcers used that formation to facilitate conversation that the Chiefs from previous seasons would embrace the deep ball and a more spread out offense. I'm not sure how accurate Nance and Romo were with the remarks as I didn't do a deep dive into the Chiefs plays. Their point that interested me was that Reid understood he needed to adapt. I trust Taylor also adapts and since the OL discussion is frequently brought on on Bengals Talk, I'll remain optimistic it is Taylor that adapts and figures out how to make the OL and offense experience even more success next year and beyond.

not as tired as we are of saying FIX THE OL and replace the OL Coach

(01-28-2024, 11:14 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/4/24/17277034/dave-lapham-predicts-bengals-will-draft-frank-ragnow-in-round-1

I wonder if they stopped sharing so much info with Lapham after that.

I wouldnt think so.  Detroit didnt trade up to pick in front of the Bengals to take Ragnow.  The Bengals traded back behind Detroit which allowed the Lions to take him and the Bengals were stuck with Price.



"some people have Frank Ragnow ahead by a substantial margin of Billy Price"   If the Bengals had Ragnow substantially ahead of Billy Price you know other teams felt the same way so when you drop back several spots in the draft that just gives other teams the chance to take the better prospect which Detroit did.  It stings a little more because it happened right in front of the Bengals pick.