(03-01-2024, 03:46 PM)pulses Wrote: Jackson isn't a 2nd rounder more like a 3rd or 4th.

Probably right.

(03-01-2024, 05:04 PM)J24 Wrote: Might be a 5th or 6th. Smallish at 6-1, poor workout numbers, and he is an older prospect. 

So we are going to ignore his play on the field because of his height? Nah, McKinnley Jackson is a mid rounder at worst, he is still around
330 pounds and is a great run stopping NT which is just what we need with the Reader injury. If we don't get Sweat and we wait to the 5th
there probably won't be any decent NT's left that are better than Tufele who was a 3rd rounder.

(03-01-2024, 07:25 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Probably right.


So we are going to ignore his play on the field because of his height? Nah, McKinnley Jackson is a mid rounder at worst, he is still around
330 pounds and is a great run stopping NT which is just what we need with the Reader injury. If we don't get Sweat and we wait to the 5th
there probably won't be any decent NT's left that are better than Tufele who was a 3rd rounder.

It happens every year! Good players slip in the draft.

(03-01-2024, 05:04 PM)J24 Wrote: Might be a 5th or 6th. Smallish at 6-1, poor workout numbers, and he is an older prospect. 

I really hate that argument that "he's an older prospect".  Really, who cares?  How many dudes end up playing 10-12 years for the same team in this day and age?  As long as he can get the job done, draft him.

(03-01-2024, 07:38 PM)J24 Wrote: It happens every year! Good players slip in the draft.

True, I just don't see it with McKinnley Jackson this Draft. Not falling all the way to the 5th or 6th.

(03-01-2024, 07:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I really hate that argument that "he's an older prospect".  Really, who cares?  How many dudes end up playing 10-12 years for the same team in this day and age?  As long as he can get the job done, draft him.

Yeah, unless he is like 28, it shouldn't be a thing. Even Britain Covey was like 28 last year as a rookie and he was a top Punt Returner.

(03-01-2024, 07:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I really hate that argument that "he's an older prospect".  Really, who cares?  How many dudes end up playing 10-12 years for the same team in this day and age?  As long as he can get the job done, draft him.

GMs thats who cares!

(03-01-2024, 09:43 PM)J24 Wrote: GMs thats who cares!

Understood, but why?  Like I said, it is very rare for players to live out two, let alone three contracts with the same team that drafted them.  If your team is looking for players who can play right NOW, why wouldn't you consider the guys who are a year or two older in the draft?

(03-01-2024, 09:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Understood, but why?  Like I said, it is very rare for players to live out two, let alone three contracts with the same team that drafted them.  If your team is looking for players who can play right NOW, why wouldn't you consider the guys who are a year or two older in the draft?

I agree. I would just mention that an older nfl rookie likely stayed in college for a reason, likely not a great NFL prospect. So I doubt they are being shaded for their age, it’s more likely that is just their talent level.

Taysom Hill comes to mind as an older prospect (27 year old rookie) who carved out a role. He went undrafted.

(03-01-2024, 11:46 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: I agree.  I would just mention that an older nfl rookie likely stayed in college for a reason, likely not a great NFL prospect.  So I doubt they are being shaded for their age, it’s more likely that is just their talent level.

Taysom Hill comes to mind as an older prospect (27 year old rookie) who carved out a role.  He went undrafted.

Joe Burrow was an older prospect. Hell, he's older than Lamar Jackson. 

(03-01-2024, 03:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, would be all for drafting Stover and Hall Jr.

The Texans were all over Stover at the combine. They like the Stroud to Stover connection.  Hall was able to raise his stock at the combine and is now considered one of the top 5 IDL guys on the board. 

(03-02-2024, 10:43 AM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: The Texans were all over Stover at the combine. They like the Stroud to Stover connection.  Hall was able to raise his stock at the combine and is now considered one of the top 5 DL guys on the board. 

Wait what? How did Hall put himself in the top 5 of DL from not working out at the Combine? 

(03-01-2024, 11:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Joe Burrow was an older prospect. Hell, he's older than Lamar Jackson. 

Kind of different when talking about a 23 year old rookie qb, or a 27 year old rookie position player.

(03-02-2024, 01:53 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Kind of different when talking about a 23 year old rookie qb, or a 27 year old rookie position player.

The "older prospect" was brought up while discussing McKinnley Jackson. He is not 27 year old

Did I just see another Myles Murphy, DT from NC??

(02-29-2024, 09:16 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That would be fantastic if he were able to defy the odds for a second time, with pretty much the same injury.  However, every incident is unique in it's own way and might present complications that weren't present the first time he rehabbed a similar injury.  Also worth mentioning that he's now three years older, and has put his body through a lot of battles between then and now, which also might cause him to need the traditional amount of recovery time.

However, he's currently not even under contract.  There are no guarantees that his agent will be willing to have Reader to sign for a "let's see how this rehab goes" type of contract.  The Bengals were needing to think about restocking the NT shelf even before DJ went down with another catastrophic injury, as the guys underneath of him are all pretty much just "bodies".

Bottom line is that if the Bengals are going to improve upon the disastrous year they had in defending the run, they need a serious NT on the roster for training camp.  You know that all three of the teams in our division love to run the ball, right? 

OK, how to respond? I have largely said my piece here. 

First, I am fully aware stopping the run is a necessity. That is why I am arguing for bringing Reader back. And not just on some one year, cheapie, "if the price is right" type of deal. He is the best run stopper out there by a country mile. I would hope the injury would lead to a mildly cheaper deal, but I fully expect it to be around $8-$10 mil year1 vs cap and more in Y2 or Y3. 
We still have $34-$36 mil in cap, without cutting (Scott) or restructuring anyone. 

Second, the staff & FO seemed to finger the safeties for some of the LB/run defense issues. We had been pretty stout vs the run with the same front 6 before. I think a vet S will go some distance to fixing those problems, or at least improving them. It is a good S FA class, and the glut should mean bargains are possible. Say $6-$8 mil. Plus you get to cut Scott as a result, so now at around $28-$32 mil left. 

Third, I am much more concerned about NT come December than I am in June. I think Tupou (UFA), can be brought back for MIN salary. He is not great but we can

DT & RT still need addressed. And even if you want to lock in at one at #18 (CB or Bowers are your other options), I am not sure I want to count on a rook to protect Burrow's blind side. Latham or Fuaga I am OK with it, but both could be gone by #18. Mims or Guyton? I might want a stopgap RT.  Murphy is probably gone at #18. 

Outside of Onwenu, none of the FA OT prospects would make me pass on a stud RT prospect (Fuaga, Latham, Guyton, Mims). One of whom WILL be there at #18. Bowers would if I have a stopgap (Smith, Brown, Eluemunor) in hand, but I seriously doubt he is there. Plus, landing a stopgap FA will be harder if they know we are likely to go OT at #18. 

For the sake of argument, let us plug in OT at #18. Committ to Sweat/Jackson at #49. And assume Tee stays, Reader is inked and back sometime, and we land a vet S for around what I guessed earlier. 

What does FA have to look like to make me feel comfortable doing that? 

1. We have to land a DT who can upgrade Carter & rush the passer. If we haven't, I draft DT instead of NT Rd2 (if not CB/WR). 

Leonard Williams would be my pick. $15 mil. Roughly $15 mil left in piggy bank. 

I do not trust Rd4 to get a starter level guy at TE/WR3/CB4. That means I need FA to take 2 off the board. Or OT. Or more Day 2 picks. 

I'd be more comfortable living with Tupou/Jordan Jefferson at NT until DJ comes back, with Williams & Hill playing some NT, than relying on a Rd4 pick at WR3/TE1/CB4. 


Obviously, YM has varied. Which is fine. 








 

(03-02-2024, 04:08 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: OK, how to respond? I have largely said my piece here. 

First, I am fully aware stopping the run is a necessity. That is why I am arguing for bringing Reader back. And not just on some one year, cheapie, "if the price is right" type of deal. He is the best run stopper out there by a country mile. I would hope the injury would lead to a mildly cheaper deal, but I fully expect it to be around $8-$10 mil year1 vs cap and more in Y2 or Y3. 
We still have $34-$36 mil in cap, without cutting (Scott) or restructuring anyone. 

Second, the staff & FO seemed to finger the safeties for some of the LB/run defense issues. We had been pretty stout vs the run with the same front 6 before. I think a vet S will go some distance to fixing those problems, or at least improving them. It is a good S FA class, and the glut should mean bargains are possible. Say $6-$8 mil. Plus you get to cut Scott as a result, so now at around $28-$32 mil left. 

Third, I am much more concerned about NT come December than I am in June. I think Tupou (UFA), can be brought back for MIN salary. He is not great but we can

DT & RT still need addressed. And even if you want to lock in at one at #18 (CB or Bowers are your other options), I am not sure I want to count on a rook to protect Burrow's blind side. Latham or Fuaga I am OK with it, but both could be gone by #18. Mims or Guyton? I might want a stopgap RT.  Murphy is probably gone at #18. 

Outside of Onwenu, none of the FA OT prospects would make me pass on a stud RT prospect (Fuaga, Latham, Guyton, Mims). One of whom WILL be there at #18. Bowers would if I have a stopgap (Smith, Brown, Eluemunor) in hand, but I seriously doubt he is there. Plus, landing a stopgap FA will be harder if they know we are likely to go OT at #18. 

For the sake of argument, let us plug in OT at #18. Committ to Sweat/Jackson at #49. And assume Tee stays, Reader is inked and back sometime, and we land a vet S for around what I guessed earlier. 

What does FA have to look like to make me feel comfortable doing that? 

1. We have to land a DT who can upgrade Carter & rush the passer. If we haven't, I draft DT instead of NT Rd2 (if not CB/WR). 

Leonard Williams would be my pick. $15 mil. Roughly $15 mil left in piggy bank. 

I do not trust Rd4 to get a starter level guy at TE/WR3/CB4. That means I need FA to take 2 off the board. Or OT. Or more Day 2 picks. 

I'd be more comfortable living with Tupou/Jordan Jefferson at NT until DJ comes back, with Williams & Hill playing some NT, than relying on a Rd4 pick at WR3/TE1/CB4. 


Obviously, YM has varied. Which is fine. 








 

I am starting to warm up to Mims or Guyton at #18, but like you said, need a bridge in FA. 
Topuo needs to be shown the door. We disagree here, but he hasn't shown anything since he was drafted. He is just a big fat slob that has a hard time getting up off the ground.

(03-02-2024, 06:59 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I am starting to warm up to Mims or Guyton at #18, but like you said, need a bridge in FA. 
Topuo needs to be shown the door. We disagree here, but he hasn't shown anything since he was drafted. He is just a big fat slob that has a hard time getting up off the ground.

Don't get me wrong, if FA goes well, I am fully capable of going NT Rd2. 

Need a bridge OT to trade back or take Mims/Guyton. 

As for Tupou, he graded out over 70 a couple years back. But has been like 52/56/57 the last three. Trending the wrong way. But that is better than Tufele and fine for a NT2/NT3 type. Or vet PS guy. Especially if you bring in a guy like Williams, where he and Hill can cover some NT till Reader gets back. I definitely bring him to camp. He's the measuring stick. If you aren't better than Tupou....

I'd just rather draft an explosive Boyd replacement or starting level corner/CB4 or pass rushing DT or starting TE rather than a backup NT type. Even if they could be a starter in the future. 

Now, if DJ is not back/signed, the calculus is totally different.

(03-02-2024, 12:51 PM)J24 Wrote: Wait what? How did Hall put himself in the top 5 of DL from not working out at the Combine? 

I read an article that was saying he had positioned himself as a top 5 IDL. I wasn't aware that he didn't participate. I can't remember the source of the article. Ts, as I was reading said article, I was thinking that his body of work wasn't exactly terrific. 

(03-02-2024, 08:11 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Don't get me wrong, if FA goes well, I am fully capable of going NT Rd2. 

Need a bridge OT to trade back or take Mims/Guyton. 

As for Tupou, he graded out over 70 a couple years back. But has been like 52/56/57 the last three. Trending the wrong way. But that is better than Tufele and fine for a NT2/NT3 type. Or vet PS guy. Especially if you bring in a guy like Williams, where he and Hill can cover some NT till Reader gets back. I definitely bring him to camp. He's the measuring stick. If you aren't better than Tupou....

I'd just rather draft an explosive Boyd replacement or starting level corner/CB4 or pass rushing DT or starting TE rather than a backup NT type. Even if they could be a starter in the future. 

Now, if DJ is not back/signed, the calculus is totally different.

Totally agree

Mike Evans 2 year 52M extension

That seems high for his age but he probably does have right about 2 more elite years left so good deal for Tampa who absolutely couldn’t lose him


So to the Bucs 13TDs, 1255 yards, and 79 catches is with 26M per year.

Tee in the year before last(16 games) was 7TDs, 1029 yards and 74 catches and If healthy probably would’ve done better than that this year. Gotta remember he was hurt in a bunch of the games he played in too. He probably should’ve only played 13 games this year maybe less.


So how much is that stat line worth to the Bengals?


With Evans setting the market i feel a good start for Tee is 26M per

Now factor in his stats are worse cause he shares the field with Chase. His stats here are always gonna be “regular”.


21-23M per on a 4 year deal sound alright?

A 3yr/70M deal i think is something he can get somewhere. I don’t think he’s getting Mike Evans money because of production and injury threat.

Honestly my head is telling me to go even lower but i have to think about this type of stuff as if Tee will be healthy all year.

(03-04-2024, 12:20 PM)Housh Wrote: Mike Evans 2 year 52M extension

That seems high for his age but he probably does have right about 2 more elite years left so good deal for Tampa who absolutely couldn’t lose him


So to the Bucs 13TDs, 1255 yards, and 79 catches is with 26M per year.

Tee in the year before last(16 games) was 7TDs, 1029 yards and 74 catches and If healthy probably would’ve done better than that this year. Gotta remember he was hurt in a bunch of the games he played in too. He probably should’ve only played 13 games this year maybe less.


So how much is that stat line worth to the Bengals?


With Evans setting the market i feel a good start for Tee is 26M per

Now factor in his stats are worse cause he shares the field with Chase. His stats here are always gonna be “regular”.


21-23M per on a 4 year deal sound alright?

A 3yr/70M deal i think is something he can get somewhere. I don’t think he’s getting Mike Evans money because of production and injury threat.

Honestly my head is telling me to go even lower but i have to think about this type of stuff as if Tee will be healthy all year.

I don't think the Bengals have a problem with giving Tee 26 per year. The problem is guaranteed money which will probably be over 50 million throughout the contract.

If you want to see a Bengals ideal deal for Tee you would have to look at  Rashan Gary for the packers. 4 year 96 million(35 guaranteed).