(03-04-2024, 11:49 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I think this is overblown. 

Look, in the ZT era, they have drafted 2 OL in the first 3 rounds. Williams Rd1 in 2019 and Carman in Rd2 in 2021. All the rest are Rd4 or below. You cannot expect much out of those guys. 

Williams was not a star. He was a "safe" pick & played like it. Injured year 1 (we should stop doing that). Graded out 70+ i  the first two years. Gutted through leg injury Y3 and grade suffered. Switched to RT and was OK. Someone is gonna pay him $15 mil in FA. That is not a bust. 

Carman is, however. Another guy with injury issues. And not a great work ethic. We tried to convert him to G. Then move him to RT. Did have some good play in the POs at LT, but he appears a LT only guy. Rumored to be an owner/former coach inspired pick. 

Jordan was a 4th, cost Joe his rookie year. 

Adeniji a 6th. What you'd expect from a 6th. 

Smith was a 4th and always a project. 

Volson was a 4th. More successful T to G conversion. Struggles with twists has something to do with it. 

All of those guys were OTs in college save Jordan. 

It is not a stellar record, but the Rd1 busts we all have PTSD over (Price, Ogbuehi) were Marvin. 

You have to be able to hit on some of your later round draft picks.  You cant have an offensive line of nothing but 1st round picks.  No team in the NFL has an offensive line full of 1st round picks.  You have to be able to identify starters in rounds other than 1 and 2.

(03-04-2024, 11:49 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I think this is overblown. 

Look, in the ZT era, they have drafted 2 OL in the first 3 rounds. Williams Rd1 in 2019 and Carman in Rd2 in 2021. All the rest are Rd4 or below. You cannot expect much out of those guys. 

Williams was not a star. He was a "safe" pick & played like it. Injured year 1 (we should stop doing that). Graded out 70+ i  the first two years. Gutted through leg injury Y3 and grade suffered. Switched to RT and was OK. Someone is gonna pay him $15 mil in FA. That is not a bust. 

Carman is, however. Another guy with injury issues. And not a great work ethic. We tried to convert him to G. Then move him to RT. Did have some good play in the POs at LT, but he appears a LT only guy. Rumored to be an owner/former coach inspired pick. 

Jordan was a 4th, cost Joe his rookie year. 

Adeniji a 6th. What you'd expect from a 6th. 

Smith was a 4th and always a project. 

Volson was a 4th. More successful T to G conversion. Struggles with twists has something to do with it. 

All of those guys were OTs in college save Jordan. 

It is not a stellar record, but the Rd1 busts we all have PTSD over (Price, Ogbuehi) were Marvin. 

Yeah, so put that all together and I think this team has a problem with identifying Oline talent. You don't expect all low rounders to perform, but you do expect to see some come good. Also consider FA duds we have signed and it just adds to our woes at the position. The team has tried to fix the Oline, I'm not disputing the intention, but we keep getting it wrong. 

On your assessment of Williams, I think Williams has underperformed, given he was a 1st round pick expected to play LT and was moved because he wasn't good enough and isn't a priority because he'll cost more than he can justify. But sure, not a bust. Brown and some of the FA signings have improved the position, but they haven't made it good.

Then you look at other positions and how we seem to be able to draft guys (in all rounds) who add to their position groups and we've also got decent to very good production from both high priced free agents (Hendrickson) and cheaper players (BJ Hill, Vonn Bell etc). It just stands out that we're not able to do as well with our Oline identification. 

The Bengals have done a great job of recruitment in almost every other position. On Oline they struggle.

I don't think it's 'overblown' to question why a team that seems excellent at talent identification can't do it when it comes to the Oline.

I haven't read all of the previous replies in this thread, so I assume it's been mentioned somewhere in here, but the line isn't as bad as many assume. The offense has been too predictable and opposing defensive coordinators aren't having to worry or account for the threat of the running game. The reason the line didn't look as bad (and the qb wasn't getting hit as often) late in the season, is bc they were forced to try and establish a running attack. It kept Browning from being sacked as often and also opened up opportunities for passing success. I'm not saying that we don't need some help, bc we are going to obviously need the RT position filled, and I would like the interior a bit stronger, but the one dimensional play calling and abandoning of the run after getting stuffed a few times early just makes it easier on opposing DC's. It wasn't that the line magically started playing better. It was mostly the way the offense was being called.

(03-05-2024, 12:09 AM)Dr.Z Wrote: I haven't read all of the previous replies in this thread, so I assume it's been mentioned somewhere in here, but the line isn't as bad as many assume.  The offense has been too predictable and opposing defensive coordinators aren't having to worry or account for the threat of the running game.  The reason the line didn't look as bad (and the qb wasn't getting hit as often) late in the season, is bc they were forced to try and establish a running attack.  It kept Browning from being sacked as often and also opened up opportunities for passing success.  I'm not saying that we don't need some help, bc we are going to obviously need the RT position filled, and I would like the interior a bit stronger, but the one dimensional play calling and abandoning of the run after getting stuffed a few times early just makes it easier on opposing DC's.   It wasn't that the line magically started playing better.  It was mostly the way the offense was being called.

I believe there's a good bit of truth here.

(03-05-2024, 12:09 AM)Dr.Z Wrote: I haven't read all of the previous replies in this thread, so I assume it's been mentioned somewhere in here, but the line isn't as bad as many assume.  The offense has been too predictable and opposing defensive coordinators aren't having to worry or account for the threat of the running game.  The reason the line didn't look as bad (and the qb wasn't getting hit as often) late in the season, is bc they were forced to try and establish a running attack.  It kept Browning from being sacked as often and also opened up opportunities for passing success.  I'm not saying that we don't need some help, bc we are going to obviously need the RT position filled, and I would like the interior a bit stronger, but the one dimensional play calling and abandoning of the run after getting stuffed a few times early just makes it easier on opposing DC's.   It wasn't that the line magically started playing better.  It was mostly the way the offense was being called.

True but Zac wont fire himself

(03-05-2024, 12:09 AM)Dr.Z Wrote: I haven't read all of the previous replies in this thread, so I assume it's been mentioned somewhere in here, but the line isn't as bad as many assume.  The offense has been too predictable and opposing defensive coordinators aren't having to worry or account for the threat of the running game.  The reason the line didn't look as bad (and the qb wasn't getting hit as often) late in the season, is bc they were forced to try and establish a running attack.  It kept Browning from being sacked as often and also opened up opportunities for passing success.  I'm not saying that we don't need some help, bc we are going to obviously need the RT position filled, and I would like the interior a bit stronger, but the one dimensional play calling and abandoning of the run after getting stuffed a few times early just makes it easier on opposing DC's.   It wasn't that the line magically started playing better.  It was mostly the way the offense was being called.

Amen. 

Preach, brother. Preach. 

The offense being called? or the offense being run? Joe likes running a wide open 4 receiver offense from shotgun. JMO this puts too much pressure on the passing game, especially a passing game that's not great in 3rd and long. Plus Joe likes hero ball, although I'm guessing his opinion about taking sacks on third down is evolving after ending two of his four seasons injured.

The story of the line this season is not as simple as one might think. Just some items:

With Burrow there were 23 sacks in 9.5 game for a 2.3 per game average. And this was with the calf issues.

With Browning there were 27 sacks in 7.5 games for a 3.6 per game average. And a LOT of these sacks were Browning holding the ball way too long.

Running wise despite some games that looked okay the overall result was not the best. That said, there are things to consider:

Good run games require more run plays to get warmed up and into some kind of groove. We averaged 36 drop backs and 22 rushes per game for 62% pass and 38% rush. And let's remember that QB scrambles count as rushes in that so the real imbalance is higher. Burrow and Browning account for 58 rush attempts or 3.4 per game - how many are designed and how many scrambles?

Now take the system they have run into account which is kinda predictable and which constantly puts the linemen on islands. Being predictable lets the defense pin its ears back. Notice the couple of games last year where we actually broke our tendencies more the line looked much better.

Finally, we have suffered from having a starting RB who was both terrible at pass blocking and one of the worst YAC backs in football. This actually constricted the playbook (by making plays that rely on a RB block/pickup problematic) and forced us into a more pass happy approach. Welcome Zack Martin, not only an upper tier pass protector but also upper tier in terms of YAC - a MUCH better fit to our system.

Gotta fix the oline

I did a deep dive on all the dynasties (or quasi-dynasties) of the past 40 years. I didn't check every team, it wasn't 100% comprehensive, but most of the major ones like Dallas, Denver, SF, NE, Indianapolis. Even threw in the Giants, Steelers and Ravens for good measure. All their offensive lines were centrally built not just on picks, but on high picks. They weren't necessarily All-Pros (Chris Snee and Will Beatty for the Giants come to mind) but they were high picks nonetheless. The Colts of 2006 had mostly Day 3's (Saturday, Jake Scott, Ryan Diem) but even they were led by a first-rounder in Tarik Glenn. Same with the Pats of 2004 (Matt Light). The 2018 Pats were a bit messier with third-rounder Thuney as their key guy, but even the cast around him (like Shaq Mason and Marcus Cannon) had been mentored earlier by high picks like Nate Solder and Sebastian Vollner.

This idea of a free agent carousel is largely unprecedented. The notable exception might be today's Chiefs, actually. But even they're stabilized by arguably the best OC in the game. I think continuity is important, and it all starts with high draftees you can put on 4 or 5-year contracts and groom into the system. Can't just run a group of rentals out there every year and expect them to thrive together. When push comes to shove, they might look like rentals. If we haven't been developing offensive linemen, the solution is to learn to develop them rather than give up altogether. In fact that's exactly what the coaches are paid to do.

(04-08-2024, 02:11 PM)tms Wrote: I did a deep dive on all the dynasties (or quasi-dynasties) of the past 40 years. I didn't check every team, it wasn't 100% comprehensive, but most of the major ones like Dallas, Denver, SF, NE, Indianapolis. Even threw in the Giants, Steelers and Ravens for good measure. All their offensive lines were centrally built not just on picks, but on high picks. They weren't necessarily All-Pros (Chris Snee and Will Beatty for the Giants come to mind) but they were high picks nonetheless. The Colts of 2006 had mostly Day 3's (Saturday, Jake Scott, Ryan Diem) but even they were led by a first-rounder in Tarik Glenn. Same with the Pats of 2004 (Matt Light). The 2018 Pats were a bit messier with third-rounder Thuney as their key guy, but even the cast around him (like Shaq Mason and Marcus Cannon) had been mentored earlier by high picks like Nate Solder and Sebastian Vollner.

This idea of a free agent carousel is largely unprecedented. The notable exception might be today's Chiefs, actually. But even they're stabilized by arguably the best OC in the game. I think continuity is important, and it all starts with high draftees you can put on 4 or 5-year contracts and groom into the system. Can't just run a group of rentals out there every year and expect them to thrive together. When push comes to shove, they might look like rentals. If we haven't been developing offensive linemen, the solution is to learn to develop them rather than give up altogether. In fact that's exactly what the coaches are paid to do.

Nice post TMS even if it makes me feel a little sad as I don't know if Pollack or our coaches can learn to develop our Draft picks on OL.

Maybe the new coaches we brought in will help along with our new OC in Pitcher. Heard that one of our new coaches has ties with Dalton 
Risner who is still out there so maybe we can bring in him or Connor Williams or Andrus Peat after the Draft to compete at the very least 
and add depth. I think we need to add a Tackle in the first 2 rounds for our future RT and wouldn't be against doubling up and adding an 
IOL to boot. We will see what we do.

I don't really care how it is done, not all early OL picks are hits as we all know all too well being Bengals fans.

(01-27-2024, 03:51 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The o line has to be priority #1. Burrow can’t keep getting murdered behind a turnstile line. The d line should be priority 2.

I think the issue is combo line giving up too many sacks and hits,and Burrow just not being as durable at QB and we would want. I don't think in the limited games Burrow played and lack of mobility he had that the line was getting him crushed... As inexperienced as Browning once, he was able to finish the season healthy behind the line.

(04-08-2024, 07:20 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I think the issue is combo line giving up too many sacks and hits,and Burrow just not being as durable at QB and we would want. I don't think in the limited games Burrow played and lack of mobility he had that the line was getting him crushed... As inexperienced as Browning once, he was able to finish the season healthy behind the line.

Disagree. Where we have bad olineman and e have bad play. It’s gotten better because we’ve brought in better oline but we lost one to FA and LG is trassshhh. And Volson the only one we drafted imagine that. We’re close but not there yet. Get get Fuaga Latham or mims in 1. And come back later like the 4th or 5th or maybe even 97 if u love a guy who’s there like puni and snag him. Give Volson some competition and depth also at multiple position up n down the line. Boom.

Ben Baldwin's latest expectations for all 32 offensive lines has the Bengals near the top in pass protection at No. 7. They're just one spot behind Cleveland and three spots behind Baltimore.

If Joe Burrow has the seventh best pass blocking offensive line this season, then the Bengals' offense is going to be one of the best in football—especially since Cincinnati has Ja'Marr Chase, Tee Higgins and could add extra weapons and linemen to their roster in the 2024 NFL Draft.

https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1777363558969278464?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1777363558969278464%7Ctwgr%5E75f68727d7855ec259780c84e6a20c4e0b12d07c%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.si.com%2Fnfl%2Fbengals%2Fbengals-offensive-line-ranked-near-top-nfl-pass-blocking

(04-09-2024, 05:09 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Ben Baldwin's latest expectations for all 32 offensive lines has the Bengals near the top in pass protection at No. 7. They're just one spot behind Cleveland and three spots behind Baltimore.

If Joe Burrow has the seventh best pass blocking offensive line this season, then the Bengals' offense is going to be one of the best in football—especially since Cincinnati has Ja'Marr Chase, Tee Higgins and could add extra weapons and linemen to their roster in the 2024 NFL Draft.

https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1777363558969278464?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1777363558969278464%7Ctwgr%5E75f68727d7855ec259780c84e6a20c4e0b12d07c%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.si.com%2Fnfl%2Fbengals%2Fbengals-offensive-line-ranked-near-top-nfl-pass-blocking

Wild, sure hope so lol

(04-09-2024, 05:09 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Ben Baldwin's latest expectations for all 32 offensive lines has the Bengals near the top in pass protection at No. 7. They're just one spot behind Cleveland and three spots behind Baltimore.

If Joe Burrow has the seventh best pass blocking offensive line this season, then the Bengals' offense is going to be one of the best in football—especially since Cincinnati has Ja'Marr Chase, Tee Higgins and could add extra weapons and linemen to their roster in the 2024 NFL Draft.

https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1777363558969278464?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1777363558969278464%7Ctwgr%5E75f68727d7855ec259780c84e6a20c4e0b12d07c%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.si.com%2Fnfl%2Fbengals%2Fbengals-offensive-line-ranked-near-top-nfl-pass-blocking

That ranking is most likely figuring Trent Brown plays like a top 8 RT

Lets see if he can even stay healthy

There's no doubt if we had a good O-Line we would have beaten the Rams in the SB and also beat the Chiefs in the AFC conference championship game a few years ago. This O-Line has been such an issue for years and so beyond tiresome to talk about and not see improvements year after year where it doesn't become a topical sticking point.

(04-08-2024, 08:45 PM)JoeyB2023 Wrote: Disagree. Where we have bad olineman and e have bad play. It’s gotten better because we’ve brought in better oline but we lost one to FA and LG is trassshhh. And Volson the only one we drafted imagine that. We’re close but not there yet. Get get Fuaga Latham or mims in 1. And come back later like the 4th or 5th or maybe even 97 if u love a guy who’s there like puni and snag him. Give Volson some competition and depth also at multiple position up n down the line. Boom.

I do think our line is better from 2 years ago but still needs improvement for sure, still hope we go tackle in 1st but i don't just buy since Burrow gets pressure and sacked the end is near, rarely does any QB go without being sacked, hit etc... we need to get the line better but Burrow also needs to find a way to be more durable to help also. I will add if we don;t see more improvement this year, time to finally move on with a new Oline coach

?
Well, we could talk about:
Deep safety problem - check
cornerback depth - check
lack of pass rush - check
lack of DT rotation - check
Tee and Chase - check
Tight Ends - check
Mixon and Moss - check

(04-09-2024, 05:27 PM)GodFather Wrote: There's no doubt if we had a good O-Line we would have beaten the Rams in the SB and also beat the Chiefs in the AFC conference championship game a few years ago. This O-Line has been such an issue for years and so beyond tiresome to talk about and not see improvements year after year where it doesn't become a topical sticking point.

The bengals have tried to make improvements year after year.