(03-19-2024, 11:28 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: My decision tree would be: 

1) RT (Fuaga or Latham) 
2) Bowers 
----------------- 
3) Trade down to take...
4) RT (Mims, Guyton) 
------------ 
5) JPJ 
6) CB (Mitchell or Arnold or DeJean) 
----------- 
7) WR
8) DT (Murphy, Newton)

That's about the same as my decision tree too, although I do have maybe some more optimism in the Michigan DBs the Bengals drafted to put that lower on the list than WR or 3T.
I might even put Bowers ahead of almost any OT that could be there. I like Bowers that much and think he could become 2nd option in the offense after Higgins departs. That would only be if they have a stopgap RT on the roster though like Trent Brown, obviously.

Really want to sign him and trust that he finally buys in on what may be his last chance in the NFL. Hall of Fame talent that has just not dedicated himself on or off the field. I heard Pat Kirwin say he simply would not sign him and he flat out doesn't like him. Well, we are in dire straits at RT so i am good to bank on the talent.
Downside, he flops and we are out some cap space we probably wouldn't use anyways.....
Upside, he buys in and we have two well above average tackles and Joe lights the league up again. It also gives us a little more freedom in the draft if a premium talent at another position is there at 18..... Terrion Arnold/ B Bowers/ Johnny Newton

Here is franchise tag for each position. Guess which is most expensive other than QB? WR is top 3. DT is #3 and LB #2.

POSITION FRANCHISE TAG TRANSITION TAG
QB $38,301,000 $34,367,000
RB $11,951,000 $9,765,000
WR $21,816,000 $19,766,000
TE $12,693,000 $10,878,000
OL $20,985,000 $19,040,000
DE $21,324,000 $19,076,000
DT $22,102,000 $18,491,000
LB $24,007,000 $19,971,000
CB $19,802,000 $17,215,000
S $17,123,000 $13,815,000
K/P $5,984,000 $5,433,000

We can't pass up on OT for a WR again as enticing as it is. We already made that mistake.

(03-19-2024, 11:38 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Were you "willing to rely" on Reader being our starting NT? 

Got em…

He is seriously upset about losing reader and playing the hypothetical game favoring both sides of his argument.

DJ reader is the best DT ever
Trent brown is horrible.

When they are about as good at their respective positions as you can get. Similar age and injury history. The only difference is reader seems to be 2-3x the better character guy.

(03-19-2024, 12:11 PM)jj22 Wrote: We can't pass up on OT for a WR again as enticing as it is. We already made that mistake.

We did they when we didn’t have Orlando brown and potentially Trent brown.

Completely different scenarios. That’s like saying you won’t pass up on a dime when you are out at the bars with your buddies, because you did it 5 years ago. Only now you’re married with kids.

If we sign, pay close attention to if it is 1 year deal or longer. If it is 2 or 3 years, Bengals would be unlikely to draft an OT with pick #18.

We would have 2 starting OT's with Ford and Carmen as back ups.

I hope they sign Brown for 2 years at a reasonable price, then target Bowers. They could maybe find a trade partner #12 Denver is Bowers is available. I think we can find a big body space eater in the draft in round 4 or later. No, they won't be Reader, but in rotation we have Rankins and Hill, we added an interior pass rusher for passing situations.

Teams like the Ravens always seem to find DTs in later rounds who are 1 dimensional like Pierce.

(03-19-2024, 12:11 PM)jj22 Wrote: We can't pass up on OT for a WR again as enticing as it is. We already made that mistake.

Please tell me you are not talking about the Chase/Sewell draft?
If you are then you think the Bengals still get to the SB with Sewell but no Chase? Insanity…Chase was the right pick even though the OL is still an issue. Not sure the Bengals ever beat the Chiefs without Chase.

(03-19-2024, 12:35 PM)Clark W Griswold Wrote: Please tell me you are not talking about the Chase/Sewell draft?
If you are then you think the Bengals still get to the SB with Sewell but no Chase?  Insanity…Chase was the right pick even though the OL is still an issue.  Not sure the Bengals ever beat the Chiefs without Chase.

Getting there not winning one. Losing one due to the Oline.

And not getting back due to the Oline.

Sustained success is the theme. And we are still looking for Oline help 4 years later. 

Defense beat the Chiefs if you talking 2021 AFCC. We don't beat the Chiefs in December of that year without Chase I agree.

The Chase / Sewell debate is still open to interpretation.

(03-19-2024, 11:49 AM)ochocincos Wrote: That's about the same as my decision tree too, although I do have maybe some more optimism in the Michigan DBs the Bengals drafted to put that lower on the list than WR or 3T.
I might even put Bowers ahead of almost any OT that could be there. I like Bowers that much and think he could become 2nd option in the offense after Higgins departs. That would only be if they have a stopgap RT on the roster though like Trent Brown, obviously.

The Bowers thing is really tempting for me at #18 if he is there. Even if I assume Brown signs in FA, I have trouble doing it in a mock. Every time I try, all the tier 2 OTs are gone by 49 along with Sweat. I take WR3 and realize I am in Rd3 and didn't help the trenches. Blake Fisher & Jackson bail me out sometimes, but not often. 

For me, I just think the trenches are priority #1. Even more so since we screwed the pooch on Reader. 

(03-19-2024, 12:37 PM)jj22 Wrote: Getting there not winning one. Losing one due to the Oline.

And not getting back due to the Oline.

Sustained success is the theme. And we are still looking for Oline help 4 years later. 

Defense beat the Chiefs if you talking 2021 AFCC. We don't beat the Chiefs in December of that year without Chase I agree.

The Chase / Sewell debate is still open to interpretation.

Detroit is closer to winning one now than we are. IMHO. They were in the NFC title game and blew a huge lead. Good FA period. Foundation is there. 

T. Brown is one of those guys I'm on the fence about. I mean when he's healthy and not have problems with whatever his "issues" off field are ?? He's a very good OT.

And lets face it our depth sucks!! I'm not so sure signing Brown with his injury history moves the issue much for needing a RT at 18?? But whatever the case may be pick him up or not I hope they can pick up a camp cut or something for depth?

(03-19-2024, 09:38 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: WR has to be in the mix as well.  Hell, there are as more WR snaps available in 2024 than any other position (assuming brown gets signed).  Plus we know if/when tee leaves, we will have even a bigger hole to fill.

After Jefferson, Chase and lamb reset the market… WR might be the highest paid position outside of QB and pass rush.  Meaning high ROI based on draft capital.

Agreed about WR, I neglected to account for the position need.

(03-19-2024, 12:48 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Detroit is closer to winning one now than we are. IMHO. They were in the NFC title game and blew a huge lead. Good FA period. Foundation is there. 

The Lions have definitely improved their roster the past few years. They also play in a weak division which helps. They like any team need injury luck. If they can stay healthy, they could be back to the NFC title game. 

Any AFC team having to go through KC will be the underdog.

The question becomes is how would they match up with KC in the Super Bowl? I don't see them being favored. 

(03-19-2024, 11:38 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Were you "willing to rely" on Reader being our starting NT? 

In December/January? Yes. Next year? Yes. 

Week 1? No. 

But that changes nothing. We could have signed Reader for the price of a Brown restructure & cutting Carman. And we have ample cap to do it without either, anyway.

The opportunity cost of the signing for 2023 was virtually nil. THAT is why is was so dumb not to do it. 

I mean, if signing Reader would have meant we had to release another contributor? That's different. But that isn't remotely the case. 

We'd be un exactly the same spot we are in now relative to Day 1 & cap, except we'd have Reader in the bag for later this year and next. 

Even if he cannot play AT ALL this year, I'd still do it. STILL a no-brainer. As I have said, the net  cap was was next to zero, we have the space anyway, and $12 mil in 2025 is a bargain.

The more one thinks about it, the dumber it gets. 

So you'd rather have an extra $1.6 mil in cap space this year than the possibility of a healthy Reader come PO time? That is what you, and our FO, said.

If we would have said, hey, we don't like these medicals, we are gonna pass? I can respect that decision. But we didn't. We MADE an offer. 

Ergo, the $5.8 this year & $12 next & $9 mil guaranteed was too steep for us. So, essentially we let him walk for the difference between their offer & ours. Which is basically nada if you do a restructure on Brown. Potentially less than nada. 

The combination of the two is borderline incompetent. Full stop.

(03-19-2024, 11:58 AM)CottonHill Wrote: Really want to sign him and trust that he finally buys in on what may be his last chance in the NFL. Hall of Fame talent that has just not dedicated himself on or off the field. I heard Pat Kirwin say he simply would not sign him and he flat out doesn't like him. Well, we are in dire straits at RT so i am good to bank on the talent.
Downside, he flops and we are out some cap space we probably wouldn't use anyways.....
Upside, he buys in and we have two well above average tackles and Joe lights the league up again. It also gives us a little more freedom in the draft if a premium talent at another position is there at 18..... Terrion Arnold/ B Bowers/ Johnny Newton

Regarding the character issue, I'm sure the Bengals would consult Cappa, and maybe also newcomer Gesicki, to gather data whether Trent Brown would be a good fit in the Bengals culture. Both Cappa and Gesicki have been listed as friends of Brown and could give insight in the matter. If they give the green light, then it is just a matter of the contract.

(03-19-2024, 01:06 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: In December/January? Yes. Next year? Yes. 

Week 1? No. 

But that changes nothing. We could have signed Reader for the price of a Brown restructure & cutting Carman. And we have ample cap to do it without either, anyway.

The opportunity cost of the signing for 2023 was virtually nil. THAT is why is was so dumb not to do it. 

I mean, if signing Reader would have meant we had to release another contributor? That's different. But that isn't remotely the case. 

We'd be un exactly the same spot we are in now relative to Day 1 & cap, except we'd have Reader in the bag for later this year and next. 

Even if he cannot play AT ALL this year, I'd still do it. STILL a no-brainer. As I have said, the net  cap was was next to zero, we have the space anyway, and $12 mil in 2025 is a bargain.

The more one thinks about it, the dumber it gets. 

So you'd rather have an extra $1.6 mil in cap space this year than the possibility of a healthy Reader come PO time? That is what you, and our FO, said.

If we would have said, hey, we don't like these medicals, we are gonna pass? I can respect that decision. But we didn't. We MADE an offer. 

Ergo, the $5.8 this year & $12 next & $9 mil guaranteed was too steep for us. So, essentially we let him walk for the difference between their offer & ours. Which is basically nada if you do a restructure on Brown. Potentially less than nada. 

The combination of the two is borderline incompetent. Full stop.

Exactly this

(03-19-2024, 12:48 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Detroit is closer to winning one now than we are. IMHO. They were in the NFC title game and blew a huge lead. Good FA period. Foundation is there. 

Vegas seems to think we are both about equally close to winning the Super Bowl.

(03-19-2024, 01:06 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: In December/January? Yes. Next year? Yes. 

Week 1? No. 

But that changes nothing. We could have signed Reader for the price of a Brown restructure & cutting Carman. And we have ample cap to do it without either, anyway.

The opportunity cost of the signing for 2023 was virtually nil. THAT is why is was so dumb not to do it. 

I mean, if signing Reader would have meant we had to release another contributor? That's different. But that isn't remotely the case. 

We'd be un exactly the same spot we are in now relative to Day 1 & cap, except we'd have Reader in the bag for later this year and next. 

Even if he cannot play AT ALL this year, I'd still do it. STILL a no-brainer. As I have said, the net  cap was was next to zero, we have the space anyway, and $12 mil in 2025 is a bargain.

The more one thinks about it, the dumber it gets. 

So you'd rather have an extra $1.6 mil in cap space this year than the possibility of a healthy Reader come PO time? That is what you, and our FO, said.

If we would have said, hey, we don't like these medicals, we are gonna pass? I can respect that decision. But we didn't. We MADE an offer. 

Ergo, the $5.8 this year & $12 next & $9 mil guaranteed was too steep for us. So, essentially we let him walk for the difference between their offer & ours. Which is basically nada if you do a restructure on Brown. Potentially less than nada. 

The combination of the two is borderline incompetent. Full stop.

The truth will be known in about 9 months. If you are correct, the defense will be worse in 2024 without Reader than they were with him in 2023. If you are wrong, maybe the FO is naive and stupid and know more about building the entire roster than you. 

(03-19-2024, 01:15 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The truth will be known in about 9 months. If you are correct, the defense will be worse in 2024 without Reader than they were with him in 2023. If you are wrong, maybe the FO is naive and stupid and know more about building the entire roster than you. 

NFL Football is a strange sport.

A player like Reader can be lost and everyone can expect the run defense to get worse but it may end up getting better 

for no explainable reason.

A Great receiver can go to a different Team and everyone can expect that Team's passing offense to take off and 

for no explainable reason it make not get any better that next year.

Hard to explain how Aaron Rodgers can leave the Packers and the next year the Packers win a Playoff game with Jordan Love.

Who knows for sure how the loss of Reader impacts things.  

On paper it hurts bad. 

Hopefully the Bengals make some moves to lessen the blow but for better or worse Reader is gone.