(03-21-2024, 06:08 PM)pulses Wrote: Sounds like maybe they should listen to their OL coach a little more and get somebody he wants and fits their scheme because Tobin sure isn't getting it done.

That is the thing, sometimes too many minds can be a problem. I don't like the thought of Duke sabotaging the OL coach
by not letting him pick his own players. Makes it a little unfair in blaming it all on Pollack honestly.

(03-21-2024, 06:13 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Somehow I feel MB is lobbing calls to the Piano Man still for opinions on OL players to draft. Probably way off base here, yet strangely feel Alexander is still being consulted. 

Sure hope not.

(03-21-2024, 06:20 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Surely after Carman that has stopped.  At least I hope.... 

Yeah, and even if I liked Carman before that draft I would of stopped if I knew PA was for him. That is how much that guy irks me.

(03-21-2024, 06:20 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Surely after Carman that has stopped.  At least I hope.... 

Imagine if you will for a moment

MB: Hey Paul, you got any sure hits for this draft?

PA: Yeah Mike, I've got you covered as always. You remember that kid that got bent in half by Sweat at Senior Bowl practice? Don't believe that, I saw him do the ketchup thing with my own eyes. That kid is going to be your All-World Center for the next 12 years. 

(03-21-2024, 06:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That is the thing, sometimes too many minds can be a problem. I don't like the thought of Duke sabotaging the OL coach
by not letting him pick his own players. Makes it a little unfair in blaming it all on Pollack honestly.


Sure hope not.


Yeah, and even if I liked Carman before that draft I would of stopped if I knew PA was for him. That is how much that guy irks me.

Sounds like more blame should be on Duke then. But it's pollack's job to train them up, but if their not already a good fit into our scheme I can see why he's had some problems.

I have never seen this team invest this much money into the Oline in FA as they have the past few seasons. Yet no matter how good the player is they seem to regress under Polack. If this line we have now continues to be an issue, then Pollack needs to go.

For the record, over the last three seasons:

Yards per carry --- 3.94, 29th in the league (regular season - pro-football-reference.com)
Sacks per attempt --- 0.084, 24th in the league (regular season - pro-football-reference.com)
OL Penalties per game --- 0.88, 5th in the league (regular season & postseason - nflpenalties.com)*

But before we give Pollack too much credit for the low penalty rate, the Bengals as a team were 1st in the league for penalties over the period (regular season - pro-football-reference.com), so the OL actually lagged behind the rest of the team on that front.

* sorry for the slight difference in data types, but it's not worth the effort of stripping postseason results out of one or building it into the other.

(03-21-2024, 07:46 PM)TKUHL Wrote: I have never seen this team invest this much money into the Oline in FA as they have the past few seasons. Yet no matter how good the player is they seem to regress under Polack. If this line we have now continues to be an issue, then Pollack needs to go.

Seems like many said the same this time last year, when OBJ Jr. was brought in.  I'm not going to claim that Pollack is great, because I don't believe he is great. I do feel like he's at least adequate to get the job done.

What I really feel will make a difference is running at least 60% of the snaps from under Center, giving the BIG men on the OL a chance to have the jump and dominate for a change.  It's no secret that we have a big and mostly unathletic OL, scheming toward their strengths will go a long way toward making them a lot more successful when they do drop into shotgun, at least in my opinion.

From my understanding, the players love Frank Pollack. Everyone wants to point to Jackson Carmen, but there is a counterargument that he's also developed some players well. For example Cody Ford has his best year under Frank, everyone shits on Volson but he improved a ton during the season. Carmen honestly could have been a good pick, but he has some work ethic issues and I don't think he wants it. I hate to see people run him down, the guy was a super bowl champ with a decently long career and seems very knowledgable in all his interviews, but what do I know, at least he's not turner lol

(03-21-2024, 06:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Imagine if you will for a moment

MB: Hey Paul, you got any sure hits for this draft?

PA: Yeah Mike, I've got you covered as always. You remember that kid that got bent in half by Sweat at Senior Bowl practice? Don't believe that, I saw him do the ketchup thing with my own eyes.  That kid is going to be your All-World Center for the next 12 years. 

You must have missed the milk drinking challenge the put him over the top!

Plus milk building stronger bones, it's a no brainer!

dummies

(03-21-2024, 08:10 PM)Okeana Wrote: From my understanding, the players love Frank Pollack.  Everyone wants to point to Jackson Carmen, but there is a counterargument that he's also developed some players well.  For example Cody Ford has his best year under Frank, everyone shits on Volson but he improved a ton during the season.  Carmen honestly could have been a good pick, but he has some work ethic issues and I don't think he wants it.  I hate to see people run him down, the guy was a super bowl champ with a decently long career and seems very knowledgable in all his interviews, but what do I know, at least he's not turner lol

Cody Ford isnt any better than he has been his entire career.  In 2020 Ford post a 53.8 PFF, this year it was 53.9.  In Ford's rookie season of 2019, he posted a 52.4 PFF grade.  Cody Ford is who he has always been.  He hasnt made any progress under Pollack.

And Volson, how long are we going to keep hearing how much better he is and how much he has improved when he is still subpar.  He improved a little from last year but still isnt all that good.  Just being out there getting snaps you would think that alone would help some.  

(03-21-2024, 04:43 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I have been as big of a Pollack critic as anyone here.  Im just telling you that I heard that he hasnt had his stamp of approval on the guys drafted.  The draft was the only point I intended to make.  That said, he obviously hasnt coached any of them up.

Same thoughts....and it's not like they were drafting well before he arrived.

(03-21-2024, 12:17 AM)bfine32 Wrote: A couple Olinemen I liked in the Carman draft who were selected after him were Spencer Brown and Tyler Smith. See how smart I am?

A couple Olinemen I like in the Volson draft who were selected after him were Dalton Kincaid and Jarmalee Salyer. See how dumb I am?

I was a big Jarmalee Salyer fan. He played really well at LT in 2022 when Slater was injured but terrible at RG in 2023. 

(03-21-2024, 07:34 PM)pulses Wrote: Sounds like more blame should be on Duke then. But it's pollack's job to train them up, but if their not already a good fit into our scheme I can see why he's had some problems.

Goes both ways for sure. Duke has never been an O-lineman though and the results speak for themselves since late in the PA era...

It isn't good. It isn't good with Pollack coaching up the O-line either and like TKUHL said, we have actually spent a lot of money there.

We need to start seeing some great results, we thought we would of been much better last year and we stayed healthy on the OL.

The problem though, still can be stemmed from Burrow getting hurt and scheme for the most part I think.

More under Center play should really help this year.

(03-21-2024, 04:43 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I have been as big of a Pollack critic as anyone here. Im just telling you that I heard that he hasnt had his stamp of approval on the guys drafted. The draft was the only point I intended to make. That said, he obviously hasnt coached any of them up.

I’m certainly not debating you’ve heard that reliably. My long time experience is that even coaches from the same team don’t agree on things. I remember after one year at OU Mike Leach took the Texas Tech job. I knew several coaches on that staff. One Bobby Jack Wright ( previously before a longtime Texas coach) said Leach would fail miserably as he was a poor fit at Tech. Another OU coach said he’ll be very successful because he’s the best game day coach I’ve ever seen in my lifetime of coaching. The Cincy staff probably gets more input in the draft than probably any organization. Probably because the small scouting department.

But there’s an issue somewhere and personally I think that OL personnel are either suited to a style whether it’s zone blocking, gap blocking, or man(angle) blocking. I think based on who has been available they’ve got a mismatch of strengths amongst them. But you also have to coordinate with the runn8ng back. Mixon was awful at zone blocking especially when we couldn’t block it. I dont think there’s a consensus strategy at work and I don’t think Pollack’s strength is scheming. This staff needs someone who can scheme against opponents. Not sure Zac’s strength is run scheme. Don’t know that Arthur Smith was great at the passing scheme for the Falcons. Head coaches don’t have all the answers or expertise.

(03-21-2024, 11:01 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Cody Ford isnt any better than he has been his entire career.  In 2020 Ford post a 53.8 PFF, this year it was 53.9.  In Ford's rookie season of 2019, he posted a 52.4 PFF grade.  Cody Ford is who he has always been.  He hasnt made any progress under Pollack.

And Volson, how long are we going to keep hearing how much better he is and how much he has improved when he is still subpar.  He improved a little from last year but still isnt all that good.  Just being out there getting snaps you would think that alone would help some.  

i mean... he's played two years and he's 25 years old.  Developmental guys... develop

(03-22-2024, 03:13 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’m certainly not debating you’ve heard that reliably. My long time experience is that even coaches from the same team don’t agree on things. I remember after one year at OU Mike Leach took the Texas Tech job. I knew several coaches on that staff. One Bobby Jack Wright ( previously before a longtime Texas coach) said Leach would fail miserably as he was a poor fit at Tech. Another OU coach said he’ll be very successful because he’s the best game day coach I’ve ever seen in my lifetime of coaching. The Cincy staff probably gets more input in the draft than probably any organization. Probably because the small scouting department.

But there’s an issue somewhere and personally I think that OL personnel are either suited to a style whether it’s zone blocking, gap blocking, or man(angle) blocking. I think based on who has been available they’ve got a mismatch of strengths amongst them. But you also have to coordinate with the runn8ng back. Mixon was awful at zone blocking especially when we couldn’t block it. I dont think there’s a consensus strategy at work and I don’t think Pollack’s strength is scheming. This staff needs someone who can scheme against opponents. Not sure Zac’s strength is run scheme. Don’t know that Arthur Smith was great at the passing scheme for the Falcons. Head coaches don’t have all the answers or expertise.

I had some great times with Mike Leach, guy is eccentrically epic.

I still think a lot of the historical issue is the Bengals not drafting linemen with system compatibility in mind. They USED to do that but you could even see where they started going away from it and it was the Ogbuehi pick. Add in the instability in the run scheme (flipping between wide zone, power gap and who knows what else) doesn't help nor does the general OL unfriendliness of our offensive schemes of late.

Hopefully now with all 5 starters being good in the same type of run scheme and with the evidence we saw in some games last year that Zac is starting to move the offense to something less liable to letting defenses tee off we will see good things. Also going from one of the worst backs in football at breaking/evading tackles to one of the better ones who also is a good pass blocker is a positive.

(03-22-2024, 06:00 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I had some great times with Mike Leach, guy is eccentrically epic.

You will love this whole interview but they start talking about Leach at 2:30
https://youtu.be/BFJLOTjuOVo?si=oSVv10z0AN3lPmu1

This is another good one.
https://youtu.be/x26BnnBHFK4?si=aqQEQKoB7jyFMp4_

(03-21-2024, 11:01 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Cody Ford isnt any better than he has been his entire career.  In 2020 Ford post a 53.8 PFF, this year it was 53.9.  In Ford's rookie season of 2019, he posted a 52.4 PFF grade.  Cody Ford is who he has always been.  He hasnt made any progress under Pollack.

And Volson, how long are we going to keep hearing how much better he is and how much he has improved when he is still subpar.  He improved a little from last year but still isnt all that good.  Just being out there getting snaps you would think that alone would help some.  

Yeah a whopping 51.6 to a 58.3 for Volson he's making real strides LOL. Coaches need to wake up and realize this dude is nothing more than a backup at best.