(03-29-2024, 09:20 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: In this scenario, we transition from a positional strength from WR to Dline, I think that works.

Yes, it absolutely 'works'.  The Bengals are pretty good at drafting skill position players, but seem to have terrible luck when it comes to drafting and developing players for the trenches, particularly the interior positions.

(03-28-2024, 11:21 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Tyreek Hill has been a Dolphin for several years now ? 

Definitely was not part of this years SB Championship.

Kelce was, but Chase > Kelce

Glad you brought up Tyreek Hill though, because he is much better than Tee and Mahomes was able to kick him to the curb to keep a team built around him and not miss a beat with scrub WR's. Unfortunately Patrick is the reigning Champion, much to my chagrin though.

I know it's not apples to apples with the Higgins situation, but KC didn't let Hill walk after his rookie deal... He's only been in Miami for 2 seasons.

(03-29-2024, 09:29 AM)jason Wrote: I know it's not apples to apples with the Higgins situation, but KC didn't let Hill walk after his rookie deal... He's only been in Miami for 2 seasons.

Chiefs receive

2022 1st-round pick
2022 2nd-round pick
2022 4th-round pick
2023 4th-round pick
2023 6th-round pick

That first round pick was a hit Cornerback McDuffie. The second round pick was a bust sky moore. They used a 4th to trade up and select rashee rice.

If all we can get is a second, you are getting about a 33% chance that we will get good production or not. It’s a lot bigger risk than people are giving it credit for. Even first round picks are less than a 50% hit rate.

According to the analysis, which was conducted by sports data firm, Sportradar, only 44% of first-round draft picks from 2011 to 2020 have signed a second contract with the team that drafted them.

*Edit* - I would have been fully onboard with trading tee if they had tried harder (at all?) to backfill his spot with a more proven veteran, and was able to throw a dart in another direction.

In 2024, Brown will earn a base salary of $3,500,000, a signing bonus of $3,000,000 and a workout bonus of $250,000, while carrying a cap hit of $8,205,882 and a dead cap value of $6,500,000.

(03-28-2024, 12:47 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Would you agree JB now has his best pass catching TE now with Gesicki? 

We still have Chase and Tee + Gesicki + Irwin + Yoshi + Jones. 

This is a great group for Joe, and we have not finished FA or drafted in 2024 yet. 

'I was referring to what was left if Tee was traded for draft capital

(03-29-2024, 12:36 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: 'I was referring to what was left if Tee was traded for draft capital

I get what you’re saying. If we trade tee, our WR 2, 3 and 4 might look a lot like the chiefs last year outside of rashee rice (Toney, Sky Moore, whoever).

For everyone talking up Yoshi, his first year metrics look awfully similar to sky moore. Not saying he can’t develop into more, but he is still an unknown.

(03-28-2024, 11:21 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Tyreek Hill has been a Dolphin for several years now ? 

Definitely was not part of this years SB Championship.

Kelce was, but Chase > Kelce

Glad you brought up Tyreek Hill though, because he is much better than Tee and Mahomes was able to kick him to the curb to keep a team built around him and not miss a beat with scrub WR's. Unfortunately Patrick is the reigning Champion, much to my chagrin though.

Did you see the Chiefs offense this past season? They were underwhelming to say the least 17 in scoring offense.  The defense carried that team to the Superbowl not Mahomes!

So if you want to copy the Chief's formula you better get a couple of superstars on the defensive side of the ball!

(03-29-2024, 12:44 PM)J24 Wrote: Did you see the Chiefs offense this past season? They were underwhelming to say the least 17 in scoring offense.  The defense carried that team to the Superbowl not Mahomes!

So if you want to copy the Chief's formula you better  get  draft a couple of superstars on the defensive side of the ball!

Updated. 

(03-29-2024, 09:41 AM)Bengalbug Wrote:
*Edit* - I would have been fully onboard with trading tee if they had tried harder (at all?) to backfill his spot with a more proven veteran, and was able to throw a dart in another direction.

In 2024, Brown will earn a base salary of $3,500,000, a signing bonus of $3,000,000 and a workout bonus of $250,000, while carrying a cap hit of $8,205,882 and a dead cap value of $6,500,000.

They still can add a veteran WR after they trade Higgins.
There are still some ok ones available.

Looking at the list, Michael Gallup, DJ Chark, and Hunter Renfrow stand out to me as a guy who could become 2nd option in the passing game as a stopgap and not have a giant drop-off in production.
We may have to accept not having a consistent 1000+ yarder though.
Could always bring back Boyd too on a 1-year or 2-year deal as a stopgap. He'd get back to around 800-900 yards if he got 100+ targets again, I think.

(03-29-2024, 01:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They still can add a veteran WR after they trade Higgins.
There are still some ok ones available.

Looking at the list, Michael Gallup, DJ Chark, and Hunter Renfrow stand out to me as a guy who could become 2nd option in the passing game as a stopgap and not have a giant drop-off in production.
We may have to accept not having a consistent 1000+ yarder though.
Could always bring back Boyd too on a 1-year or 2-year deal as a stopgap. He'd get back to around 800-900 yards if he got 100+ targets again, I think.

those guys are significant drop offs from Tee Higgins

(03-29-2024, 01:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They still can add a veteran WR after they trade Higgins.
There are still some ok ones available.

Looking at the list, Michael Gallup, DJ Chark, and Hunter Renfrow stand out to me as a guy who could become 2nd option in the passing game as a stopgap and not have a giant drop-off in production.
We may have to accept not having a consistent 1000+ yarder though.
Could always bring back Boyd too on a 1-year or 2-year deal as a stopgap. He'd get back to around 800-900 yards if he got 100+ targets again, I think.

I'm always weary of a FA WR. They are free agents for a reason . The identity of This offense is JB and getting the ball out to playmakers. As a 4th WR ok a FA WR is suffice. 
But replacing Tee with a proven underachieving WR
Is rolling the dice. What makes Tee dangerous 
Is that he has routinely smoked #1 CBs
In the past.he has the playmaking ability 
Of a true #1

(03-29-2024, 02:13 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I'm always weary of a FA WR. They are free agents for a reason . The identity of This offense is JB and getting the ball out to playmakers. As a 4th WR ok a FA WR is suffice. 
But replacing Tee with a proven underachieving WR
Is rolling the dice. What makes Tee dangerous 
Is that he has routinely smoked #1 CBs
In the past.he has the playmaking ability 
Of a true #1

If not wanting to go FA, fine.

There were multiple WRs drafted last year picked after the 20th overall pick that put up 800+ yards.
Flowers (22nd overall, 3rd WR) - 858 yards
Addison (23rd overall, 4th WR) - 911 yards
Rice (55th overall, 7th WR) - 938 yards
Dell (69th overall, 9th WR) - 709 yards (11 games only)

This draft class is expected to be better than last year's.

Bengals should be able to get a WR who can put up 700+ yards immediately as a rookie without needing to trade up.
It's not guaranteed, but that's what the scouting department is for.

I'm not as worried about not having Higgins as some others are.
There are viable options, even if it's not quite the exact same level.

Travis Kelce is a very good blocker and best receiving TE ever. Chase is the more explosive of the 2 but acting like it isn't close is absurd. Chris Jones was the player that won Chiefs SB last season he was making game changing plays defensively every game on their SB run. Our best defensive player is Hendrickson he doesnt change games the way Jones does for Chiefs. With all that said Burrow doesn't get hurt I like our chances against them.

I'd love to know if the Bengals are already holding firm with intent to keep Tee on the roster or if Duke is actively entertaining offers or even dialing up trade ideas of his own.

I'd take a high 2nd round pick if the offer came in. I think the Bengals are better with Tee's talent than an unknown 2nd rounder, but the notion of "why would we give up Tee and hurt the team" neglects to account for how Tee and his agent might react throughout the season. Tee's talent isn't in question, but will he remain motivated and always be available if unhappy because of not getting a big contract? I wouldn't wait to find out and try to make the best of the situation by acquiring a 2nd round pick

I speculate it is now to Duke's advantage to swing a deal closer to draft day. Maybe trade partners will feel an increased sense of urgency to trade for Tee.

(03-29-2024, 02:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If not wanting to go FA, fine.

There were multiple WRs drafted last year picked after the 20th overall pick that put up 800+ yards.
Flowers (22nd overall, 3rd WR) - 858 yards
Addison (23rd overall, 4th WR) - 911 yards
Rice (55th overall, 7th WR) - 938 yards
Dell (69th overall, 9th WR) - 709 yards (11 games only)

This draft class is expected to be better than last year's.

Bengals should be able to get a WR who can put up 700+ yards immediately as a rookie without needing to trade up.
It's not guaranteed, but that's what the scouting department is for.

I'm not as worried about not having Higgins as some others are.
There are viable options, even if it's not quite the exact same level.

I’m glad you pointed out the 4 receivers picked after 18 that were successful, there were others like nacua, but I get your point. You didn’t mention JSN, Quinton Johnson, John mingo or the other 26 wide receivers we mentioned that got drafted last year (total of 33).

Including rookie tight ends 13 pass catchers got to 500 yards. So if we remove tight ends as part of the 33 receivers about 33% had good to great production. The round they were draft is almost irrelevant. If you want to replace tee with a rookie, you might need to draft 3.

Say NE came at us and said we can't give up a second but we can do a "x player + our third round pick" trade. Does NE have any players that would reasonably fit that criteria where we aren't taking the short end of the stick in the trade?

Just to clear things up. People are acting like we would be merely missing a 1,000 yard receiver when in fact it's more like we would be missing a 1,200 yard to 1,300 yard receiver. Point being Tee is a great player and will be very hard to replaced. Acting like a 1st RD receiver can come in and automatically replace him is a preposterous statement.

If you believe in trading Tee then you have to be in favor of adding another elite veteran player in the process. Preferably one on the defensive side of ball or offensive Line.

Tee averaged 77.9yards a game in 2021( per 17 game 1,324)and 73.5(per 17 1,249) yards per a game in 2020( he had 2 games were he didn't receive a target due to injury. @ Ravens ten snaps and home against the Browns)

Bengals hit more often on WR's than they miss.... I'd take that gamble personally.

(03-29-2024, 03:56 PM)J24 Wrote: Just to clear things up. People are acting like we would be merely missing a 1,000 yard receiver when in fact it's more like we would be missing a 1,200 yard to 1,300 yard receiver. Point being Tee is a great player and will be very hard to replaced. Acting like a 1st RD receiver can come in and automatically replace him is a  preposterous statement.

If you believe in trading Tee then you have to be in favor of adding another elite veteran player in the process. Preferably one on the defensive side of ball or offensive Line.

Tee averaged 77.9yards a game in 2021( per 17 game 1,324)and 73.5(per 17 1,249) yards per a game in 2020( he had 2 games were he didn't receive a target due to injury. @ Ravens ten snaps and home against the Browns)

Injury is one of the key factors with people willing to trade Tee. And trust in the FO drafting Wideouts. And the argument for years that Dalton was a bum because he needed all the talent / weapons. A perfect roster...… We believe Burrow is better than Dalton. 

As far as the elite vet defensive side of the ball.. We are past that in FA. However as KC did, we can rebuild through the draft, extra picks would help that. 

If Tee's been healthy and was able to accumulate all those yards he could have, then maybe even 1 more year out of him would be enough to quiet any willingness for fans to trade him. He hasn't tho, and because of that the 21m is not only a rental that we will never get back or be able, it's  gamble. 

And it's a deeep wideout class. That means something. If it wasn't then fans wouldn't believe a replacement could be found, and that would change the narrative.

(03-29-2024, 03:59 PM)QueenCity Wrote: Bengals hit more often on WR's than they miss.... I'd take that gamble personally.

I would too. For the right pick (a high 2nd at least) I would trade him. Big cap savings and I think Chase and Burrow would make a rookie WRs life much easier. Like it’s been said before - if. Borrow is “that guy” the. He shouldn’t have to have 2 elite WRs to win.

Can use that money to get a stud Ol or DL guy in next years FA or help with Chase’s extension.