(05-03-2024, 08:28 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’d say Marvin gets the edge until Zac produces a Whit or a Geno caliber player. Excluding layups like Burrow and Chase in the top 5 (Marvin had AJ anyway). The only other All Pro we’ve drafted other than Chase in the last decade or so was Bates who was Marvin’s last draft class.

The best player outside of the top 5 they’ve drafted under Zac is probably Tee. Who’s obviously a good player, but not a a franchise changer like those other guys.

lol, I guess you would say Michael Pittman jr is the same for the colts? Tee obviously is a franchise changer. Top 20 at his position and a top 7 player on the roster.

(05-03-2024, 08:32 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: lol, I guess you would say Michael Pittman jr is the same for the colts? Tee obviously is a franchise changer. Top 20 at his position and a top 7 player on the roster.

Is this a serious post? Tee is obviously several rungs down compared to guys like Whit and Geno.

(05-03-2024, 08:31 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Micah parsons has been better than Chase so far in their careers. But we sure did well.

Just not in the postseason. 1 sack in 4 playoff games. Guess he’s been hanging around Dak too much…

Chase otoh set the rookie receiving record for yards in the playoffs.

(05-03-2024, 09:23 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Is this a serious post? Tee is obviously several rungs down compared to guys like Whit and Geno.

It's tough to really deep dive into long time Bengals veterans vs guys who have played for 4 years. That being said, longevity aside.....

McPherson is every bit as good so far in his career, at his position, as Atkins & Whitworth were. I would say better given the big games he was a stud in.

I would also put Logan Wilson & Pratt in there. Those guys have been outstanding for the Bengals. Especially in big games that mattered.

Personally, I value that big game performance over the guys who shrunk when the lights were brightest. How many meaningful impact plays did Geno Arkins make? AJ Green? Where was he in these playoffs? What were the stakes in the big games Marvin's draft picks have had?

It's an interesting discussion for sure.

No question ZT is bolstered by his blue chippers (Burrow, Chase, Higgins). But his hits in FA are what has infused the team with talent. Marvin SUCKED at that. He also didn't get a lot out of some big time draft picks. He had a TON of draft misses with mid & high picks.

Marvin was part of the group that passed on Stephen Jackson.... TWICE to take Chris Perry. The draft which Marvin involved had a lot of really bad selections. I still blame Duke for most of these mid round follies.

(05-03-2024, 09:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: It's tough to really deep dive into long time Bengals veterans vs guys who have played for 4 years. That being said....

McPherson is every bit as good so far in his career, at his position, as Atkins & Whitworth were. I would say better given the big games he was a stud in.

I would also put Logan Wilson & Pratt in there. Those guys have been outstanding for the Bengals. Especially in big games that mattered.

Personally, I value that big game performance over the guys who shrunk when the lights were brightest. How many meaningful impact plays did Geno make? What were the stakes in those games?

It's an interesting discussion for sure.

Geno did have a big sack against the Steelers in 2016. In a game they obviously should’ve won.

It’s definitely fair to bring up playoff performance though (I just did with Parsons), but when the gap is as large as it is between guys like Whit/Geno and Wilson/Pratt I’m still going with the guys that at the very least are borderline Hall of Famers.

And to think that the Bengals could have had Penei Sewell and George Pickens..

(05-03-2024, 09:55 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And to think that the Bengals could have had Penei Sewell and George Pickens..

Speaking of Steelers draft picks not only did they waste a 1st round pick on a RB, they aren’t even picking up his 5th year!

https://www.nfl.com/news/steelers-decline-rb-najee-harris-fifth-year-option

(05-03-2024, 09:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Geno did have a big sack against the Steelers in 2016. In a game they obviously should’ve won.

It’s definitely fair to bring up playoff performance though (I just did with Parsons), but when the gap is as large as it is between guys like Whit/Geno and Wilson/Pratt I’m still going with the guys that at the very least are borderline Hall of Famers.

So now the bar for a successful draft pick is borderline hall of famer?

Yes my previous post was serious. Tee Higgins has been a franchise changer as a second round pick. If you can have above average play and stabalize a position for 5 years, then that allows you to focus on other areas.

Let’s not pretend that 4 years into his career that we thought whit was all that different than Higgins. Both above average and helped solidify a spot. Time will tell as to the balance of careers, but you don’t find many wide receivers (a few to a handful out of dozens drafted) better than tee in most drafts.

(05-03-2024, 10:53 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: So now the bar for a successful draft pick is borderline hall of famer?

Yes my previous post was serious. Tee Higgins has been a franchise changer as a second round pick. If you can have above average play and stabalize a position for 5 years, then that allows you to focus on other areas.

Let’s not pretend that 4 years into his career that we thought whit was all that different than Higgins. Both above average and helped solidify a spot. Time will tell as to the balance of careers, but you don’t find many wide receivers (a few to a handful out of dozens drafted) better than tee in most drafts.

All I did was merely respond to Brownshoes on who gets the nod at better drafting - Marvin or Zac. For whatever reason you got hung up on the wording when I was literally pointing to Tee as a very good draft pick for Zac. But FOR ME Marvin gets the edge. You want to say we didn’t know Whit was special the first 4 years (I disagree but wtv) ok well we DID know Geno was truly elite within 4 years. So again, for me, Marvin’s best non-top 5 picks >>> Zac’s best non-top 5 picks. So far.

If you think Zac has been the better drafter - cool. I hope you turn out to be right.

(05-03-2024, 09:55 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And to think that the Bengals could have had Penei Sewell and George Pickens..

Possibly, but Pickens came out in '22 and we would have to either use our 1st or do poorly enough to have better draft position in the 2nd, meaning no SB run, no breaking the streak of playoff losses, etc.

(05-02-2024, 05:50 PM)J24 Wrote: 1st.) Jammar Chase WR LSU

2.) Jackson Carmen OL Clemson

3.) Joseph Ossai Edge Texas

4.) Cam Sample Edge Tulane

4b.)Tyler Shelvin NT LSU

4c.) D'ante Smith OT ECU

5.)Mac McPherson K Florida

6th.) Trey Hill C Georgia

6b.) Chris Evans RB Florida

7.) Wyatt Hubert DE

Tough to grade, honestly.  On one hand, we got two guys who are Top 5 at their positions (Chase, Mac).  On the other, there are some huge letdowns (Carman, Ossai).  

At the end of the day, I have to give it an A-.  It's hard to get elite players, and we got two out of this one.  Carman and Ossai never panned out for different reasons, although both have been at least decent depth pieces.  Most of the Day 3 picks are still on the roster three years later, so at least we got some cheap depth for several years out of them.   

(05-03-2024, 11:24 AM)Whatever Wrote: Possibly, but Pickens came out in '22 and we would have to either use our 1st or do poorly enough to have better draft position in the 2nd, meaning no SB run, no breaking the streak of playoff losses, etc.

Pretty sure that Pickens was drafted out of Georgia, with the #52 pick in the 2021 draft.

(05-03-2024, 11:59 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Pretty sure that Pickens was drafted out of Georgia, with the #52 pick in the 2021 draft.

Nope. 2022. The Steelers took Freiermuth in the 2nd in 21.

(05-03-2024, 12:04 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Nope. 2022. The Steelers took Freiermuth in the 2nd in 21.

Damn, you're right. Must have mistyped the year when I was looking earlier. Good catch.

(05-02-2024, 05:50 PM)J24 Wrote: 1st.) Jammar Chase WR LSU

2.) Jackson Carmen OL Clemson

3.) Joseph Ossai Edge Texas

4.) Cam Sample Edge Tulane

4b.)Tyler Shelvin NT LSU

4c.) D'ante Smith OT ECU

5.)Mac McPherson K Florida

6th.) Trey Hill C Georgia

6b.) Chris Evans RB Florida

7.) Wyatt Hubert DE

Admittedly I am a fairly harsh grader when it comes to Bengals drafts. Probably because I have seen a lot of wasted years and talent along the way. Ts, this draft has 2 hits,2 complete misses, and 6 incompletes. None of the incompletes can currently be ranked above a C at their draft positions. Even if you give 2 of the incompletes a C grade there are still 4 other players with an incomplete and none could be ranked above a D.

 Two A+, two F's, two C's (and I'm being generous), four D's.

It's a D for me. 

Marvin's drafts and players couldn't even produce a playoff win....

Yall overthinking this. What more do you want from these players other than playoff wins and championship game wins and SB appearances?

(05-03-2024, 12:34 PM)jj22 Wrote: Marvin's drafts and players couldn't even produce a playoff win....

Yall overthinking this. What more do you want from these players other than playoff wins and championship game wins and SB appearances?

You’re thinking emotionally

Overall the 2021 draft is a C-

(05-03-2024, 12:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Damn, you're right. Must have mistyped the year when I was looking earlier. Good catch.

The most productive 2nd round WR that would have been available to us and was drafted in the 2nd in '21 is Rondale Moore, who has 1201 yards and 3 TD's in three years in the league.  The best T we could have gotten that went in 2 would have been Cosmi.

(05-03-2024, 12:34 PM)jj22 Wrote: Marvin's drafts and players couldn't even produce a playoff win....

Yall overthinking this. What more do you want from these players other than playoff wins and championship game wins and SB appearances?

Marvin never had the benefit of the team actually spending in free agency. Players like Hendrickson, Reader, Bell, Awuzie, Hilton, etc were all vital during the recent playoff runs.

I'm thinking about the only thing that (should) matters.... Wins and post season contributions.

There is no SB without Shelvin's big play against Mahomes.... What more do you want from a draft pick. I'll have to hear the A picks in prior drafts and wonder what they did to help the team win and make championship runs.

You can point to the supposed great draft picks of Dunlap, Atkins, Whit etc. but what exactly did that get us? You guys rather go back to 1 and dones?