(05-22-2024, 11:46 AM)PDub80 Wrote: - Proven talent at the RB position is vastly overrated in today's NFL, but that sentiment DOES depend on scheme and roster make up. Did the Chiefs have proven RB talent in 2022? 2023? NO. They didn't have some long term Bell cow guy and they won back to back SBs. Chiefs went young and dynamic at the RB spot.... Hell, they got rid of their proven RBs to do so.

Joe Mixon was a proven talent... to what end?

Production wise, what was that "proven talent" actually worth on game day? The numbers Mixon was putting up were not special in any way, shape, or form.

- I understand the question and that others have a different opinion than mine. That is A ok by me!

- How much they spend on the RB position is very relevant. To think it doesn't matter is to ignore how roster construction is done under a hard salary cap. Bengals traded the salary of 1 avg producing "proven"  RB for: Zack Moss AND Mike Gesicki AND a draft pick.

^ That is excellent roster construction and cap allocation/value. Production in the aggregate for the $ matters while working under the a hard ceiling salary cap. Joe Mixon's "proven" worth was NOT living up to the contract value the way the Bengals were using him or getting out of him. If he can do that with the Texans, good for Joe & the Texans. It wasn't happening in Cincy.

YES.

In 2022 they had former 1st rounder CH-E returning and to augment him they picked up former 2nd rounder and NFL starter Ronald Jones II

In 2023 they brought back CH-E and Jerrick McKinnon who had over 800 yards from scrimmage the year prior. They also entered the season with Pacheco who had proven himself the year prior. 

Folks make it hard around here. I said "On Paper" we look like one of the weakest groups in the NFL. Moss is a journeyman who has only started due to injury and Chase is a 5th-round 2nd-year player coming off a 330 yards from scrimmage season. 

I have high hopes and hopefully next year we can say we have proven talent at the RB group. 

(05-22-2024, 12:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: This whole discussion is just mind blowing...

Mixon has plenty of faults, being overpaid chief among them.  He was still a proven bellcow, perennial 1k RB, and a former Pro Bowler.  I don't think he was a good scheme fit for Zac's offense, however.

Moss is a perennial 300-400 yard back who has been cut once already in his career and had an outlier 700+ yard campaign in a contract year behind an elite OL.  

Being real, Moss isn't a Joe Mixon replacement.  Moss is Samaje Perrine's replacement a year late.  They are gambling that Brown is going to replace Mixon.

Some need a huge dose of a reality check. Zach Moss has scored 14 TD’s in 6 seasons. He’s averaging 4.3 ypc. He has started 11 games in 6 seasons.

(05-22-2024, 02:20 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Some need a huge dose of a reality check. Zach Moss has scored 14 TD’s in 6 seasons. He’s averaging 4.3 ypc. He has started 11 games in 6 seasons.

Only because he was behind some really good backs. Zack Moss fits this Offense perfectly and let's not act like Mixon was great or
something last year, we were the worst running Offense in the NFL. This is reality.

For all the doubting Debbie downers out there we were undefeated in the regular season last year when we gave Chase Brown 7 or more carries. So maybe we will be alright?

(05-22-2024, 05:18 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Only because he was behind some really good backs. Zack Moss fits this Offense perfectly and let's not act like Mixon was great or
something last year, we were the worst running Offense in the NFL. This is reality.

Plus he hasn't played six seasons. He was a 3rd round pick of the Bills in the 2020 draft. The Bills were using him to spell Devin Singletary and when he was in he was productive. They traded him to the Colts where he was the backup for Jonathan Taylor (who is making 11 million this season and had they moved on from him would have been a 23 million dead cap hit). He was only on the market because the Colts could not afford to keep him and Taylor, and he chose to take a "bet on yourself" deal here which was wise because every time he has gotten snaps he has produced. 

(05-22-2024, 06:40 PM)Joelist Wrote: Plus he hasn't played six seasons. He was a 3rd round pick of the Bills in the 2020 draft. The Bills were using him to spell Devin Singletary and when he was in he was productive. They traded him to the Colts where he was the backup for Jonathan Taylor (who is making 11 million this season and had they moved on from him would have been a 23 million dead cap hit). He was only on the market because the Colts could not afford to keep him and Taylor, and he chose to take a "bet on yourself" deal here which was wise because every time he has gotten snaps he has produced. 

Well then can we all agree that if Moss doesnt do much better than Mixon the problem is Frank Pollack/the offensive scheme we use?  There is no reason our running game shouldnt be much improved this year.

(05-22-2024, 07:00 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Well then can we all agree that if Moss doesnt do much better than Mixon the problem is Frank Pollack/the offensive scheme we use?  There is no reason our running game shouldnt be much improved this year.

I hope so. Moss style is a much closer fit to our scheme than Mixon's was so the results should reflect it - assuming we don't have another fit of weirdness and start trying to run wide zone again...

(05-22-2024, 05:18 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Only because he was behind some really good backs. Zack Moss fits this Offense perfectly and let's not act like Mixon was great or
something last year, we were the worst running Offense in the NFL. This is reality.

His stats are what they are. He’s played 6 seasons as a backup and I’m only responding to those that think he will be great. There’s absolutely zero evidence he will be better than Mixon. Mixon just signed a 3 year 27 million dollar contract with 13 million guaranteed. He made out like a bandit. Moss meanwhile will make an avg. of 4 million a year. Let’s don’t get carried away that Moss is some great improvement until he proves it. We will find out about Mixon as he will have better run blocking. When he has a great year…. The pundits will say he just wasn’t trying here

(05-23-2024, 12:18 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: His stats are what they are. He’s played 6 seasons as a backup and I’m only responding to those that think he will be great. There’s absolutely zero evidence he will be better than Mixon. Mixon just signed a 3 year 27 million dollar contract with 13 million guaranteed. He made out like a bandit. Moss meanwhile will make an avg. of 4 million a year. Let’s don’t get carried away that Moss is some great improvement until he proves it. We will find out about Mixon as he will have better run blocking. When he has a great year…. The pundits will say he just wasn’t trying here

I think this is an odd position to take.

One one hand, you say Zack Moss has been what he has been.... on the other, you say Joe Mixon is NOT what he has been.... which is a plodding, 4 yard per carry back who is not at all a threat to break a big run or gash defenses.

Zack Moss doesn't have to be an improvement over Mixon. He just has to be the same (and pass block better) while Brown gets platooned into the mix more.

I don't see why Bengals fans think that isn't possible for Moss to do, or a good thing for the offense as a whole.

(05-23-2024, 12:18 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: His stats are what they are. He’s played 6 seasons as a backup and I’m only responding to those that think he will be great. There’s absolutely zero evidence he will be better than Mixon. Mixon just signed a 3 year 27 million dollar contract with 13 million guaranteed. He made out like a bandit. Moss meanwhile will make an avg. of 4 million a year. Let’s don’t get carried away that Moss is some great improvement until he proves it. We will find out about Mixon as he will have better run blocking. When he has a great year…. The pundits will say he just wasn’t trying here

He has only been in the league four seasons. He was drafted in 2020. Has 2000+ rush yards and 14 rush TDs.

He was given the chance to be the lead runner for a short period of time to start last year and was trailing only Christian McCaffrey to be the leading rusher in the NFL after like the first 4-5 games last year.

I take that as evidence.

(05-22-2024, 01:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: YES.

In 2022 they had former 1st rounder CH-E returning and to augment him they picked up former 2nd rounder and NFL starter Ronald Jones II

In 2023 they brought back CH-E and Jerrick McKinnon who had over 800 yards from scrimmage the year prior. They also entered the season with Pacheco who had proven himself the year prior. 

Folks make it hard around here. I said "On Paper" we look like one of the weakest groups in the NFL. Moss is a journeyman who has only started due to injury and Chase is a 5th-round 2nd-year player coming off a 330 yards from scrimmage season. 

I have high hopes and hopefully next year we can say we have proven talent at the RB group. 

You're arguing just to argue.....

Planting your flag in CH-E?

- CH-E is a 1st round bust and the Chiefs shoved him down the depth chart after year 1.

- Ronald Jones is and was a nobody

- McKinnon, bless his soul, won me a fantasy title.... WITH RECEIVING YARDS & TDs. Not rushing, which is why you had to quote his yards from scrimmage and not rushing stats.

- Pacheco was an emerging young player and far from some proven playmaker.

^ He's a great example of why you rotate through RBs - yes, even young ones - until you find guys that fit your offense in today's NFL. None of these guys are "bell cows". They are a complimenting group.

And I STILL want to know if Chris Evans made a pass at one of the Blackburn girls or something and upset ownership. He's electric when he gets his hands on the ball.... yet has been MIA after a very good preseason.

I am not saying Moss is Emmit Smith. I'm saying he is at worse the same production as Mixon while blocking better....  AND Brown will get the rock more with Mixon gone - which makes the Bengals rushing atttack more explosive. AND that the Bengals did well in making better use of Mixons money.

(05-23-2024, 01:50 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: He has only been in the league four seasons. He was drafted in 2020. Has 2000+ rush yards and 14 rush TDs.

He was given the chance to be the lead runner for a short period of time to start last year and was trailing only Christian McCaffrey to be the leading rusher in the NFL after like the first 4-5 games last year.

I take that as evidence.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/4035676/zack-moss

I was wrong 5 seasons

(05-23-2024, 01:50 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: He has only been in the league four seasons. He was drafted in 2020. Has 2000+ rush yards and 14 rush TDs.

He was given the chance to be the lead runner for a short period of time to start last year and was trailing only Christian McCaffrey to be the leading rusher in the NFL after like the first 4-5 games last year.

I take that as evidence.

I’ll take as evidence that that evidence you treasure so much didn’t remotely move the needle for GM’s.

(05-23-2024, 01:38 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I think this is an odd position to take.

One one hand, you say Zack Moss has been what he has been.... on the other, you say Joe Mixon is NOT what he has been.... which is a plodding, 4 yard per carry back who is not at all a threat to break a big run or gash defenses.

Zack Moss doesn't have to be an improvement over Mixon. He just has to be the same (and pass block better) while Brown gets platooned into the mix more.

I don't see why Bengals fans think that isn't possible for Moss to do, or a good thing for the offense as a whole.

I think theirs a possibility that the Cincinnati OL hasn’t helped Mixon. We will see. And all I’m saying is that Moss and his stats aren’t much evidence. He’s played 5 seasons and only started due to injury. Now we will see as he gets his chance.

(05-22-2024, 05:18 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Only because he was behind some really good backs. Zack Moss fits this Offense perfectly and let's not act like Mixon was great or
something last year, we were the worst running Offense in the NFL. This is reality.

And worst ranked OL the last 3 years. We’ll see. Zach was behind Taylor but Singleterry I won’t.

(05-23-2024, 08:49 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/4035676/zack-moss

I was wrong 5 seasons

This is Moss's 5th year. 

(05-22-2024, 06:40 PM)Joelist Wrote: Plus he hasn't played six seasons. He was a 3rd round pick of the Bills in the 2020 draft. The Bills were using him to spell Devin Singletary and when he was in he was productive. They traded him to the Colts where he was the backup for Jonathan Taylor (who is making 11 million this season and had they moved on from him would have been a 23 million dead cap hit). He was only on the market because the Colts could not afford to keep him and Taylor, and he chose to take a "bet on yourself" deal here which was wise because every time he has gotten snaps he has produced. 

Well not exactly true. 

The Bills weren't happy with Moss and drafted James Cook in the second round of 2022. They proceeded to trade Zack Moss and a 5th round pick to the Colts for Nyheim Hines mid season because they wanted to get more speed and receiving production at RB. Taylor was injured late 2022 Moss filled in very well to finish 2022 and start 2023.

Side Note: The Colts used the Bills 5th round pick on RB Evan Hull who will likely step into their primary backup role along with Tyler Goodson and Trey Sermon who both also saw action and played well in 2023 behind that really good Colts OL.

Well I think the run game will be better overall this year because I mainly expect the o line to be better. I don’t give a rats ass who is toting the rock whether it’s zack moss, joe mixon or Joe Schmoe.

I can’t wait for season to begin.

We probably need a thread on McPherson and needing 3 quality backup kickers in camp just in case

(05-23-2024, 11:14 AM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Well I think the run game will be better overall this year because I mainly expect the o line to be better.  I don’t give a rats ass who is toting the rock whether it’s zack moss, joe mixon or Joe Schmoe.  

I can’t wait for season to begin.

We probably need a thread on McPherson and needing 3 quality backup kickers in camp just in case

He's going to be made the highest paid Kicker in NFL sometime this off-season right?

(05-23-2024, 09:52 AM)Whatever Wrote: This is Moss's 5th year. 

That’s right split season wasn’t paying attention didn’t see the split seasons