(05-31-2024, 01:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He certainly will be getting a ton of snaps this Offseason to really improve on his weaknesses with Tee not being around for a while.

It is true that Iosivas has not been a natural hands catcher, but this can be worked on with time.

Exactly. You can teach catching with hands. And so far in OTAs they have shown he has been catching with his hands. 

On a related note, 26% of snaps was more him on Special Teams than anything else as he only had 25 targets all season. And last season after Burrow went down was a golden opportunity to work both him and Chuck Sizzle enough to season them and get a firm grasp on their floor and ceiling. Than again, we only missed postseason by dint of a dropped TD pass in the Houston game so...

(05-31-2024, 12:15 AM)Joelist Wrote: Yoshi will be fine. If I had to criticize the team for something last season it was not getting Yoshi (and others) more snaps especially after Burrow went down. Then again Yoshi was being defenders and getting wide open and Browning wasn't seeing him. So far in OTP he has been catching with his hands away from his body so it is clear he worked on that.

I agree that Iosivas will be just fine. I don't agree on criticizing the team over not playing him (Iosivas) more last season, as despite Burrow's assorted injuries and the defense's inability to stop the run, they were still playing to win. They never threw in the towel, even Browning had to play QB for the remainder of the season.

Good to learn that Iosivas is working on his craft, like all good athletes do. Any athlete with the body control and coordination it takes to Pole Vault, High Jump, Sprint, Hurdle, and throw Shot, easily has enough talent to make catches. He's obviously worked on putting on lean muscle, which will help him in those contested catch situations. Just give this guy a little larger cut of the reps and he will be impressive.

(05-31-2024, 04:16 PM)Joelist Wrote: Exactly. You can teach catching with hands. And so far in OTAs they have shown he has been catching with his hands. 

On a related note, 26% of snaps was more him on Special Teams than anything else as he only had 25 targets all season. And last season after Burrow went down was a golden opportunity to work both him and Chuck Sizzle enough to season them and get a firm grasp on their floor and ceiling. Than again, we only missed postseason by dint of a dropped TD pass in the Houston game so...

Uh, no.  He played 26% of the offensive snaps because he played 26% of the offensive snaps.  Those are tallied different s than ST's snaps, which he played 51% of.  He had a low number of targets, true, but that can be a large number of different factors.  Route assignments, not getting open, the QB not being able to trust him to make tough catches, etc.  He got plenty of snaps.  He just wasn't very good.  

Hands catching can be improved somewhat, but natural ability in that area is extremely important, also.  And Yoshi's worked on this ever since he started playing football.  Kid actually bought his own jugs machine to work with when he was at Princeton.  Could he improve some?  Certainly.  Will he ever be a plus hands guy?  Doubtful.

(05-30-2024, 12:29 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The things people believe is just madness...

And it is equally as madness how people give the front office a free pass on stuff like this when they have a history of being obstinate on contracts. The front office is screwing the pooch because it appears they have no strategy


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(05-30-2024, 02:53 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: 1 drop in 25 targets is a lot? That's 4%.

Higgins' drop rates each year:

'20: 6.4%
'21: 3.6%
'22: 4.5%
'23: 10.5%

Of course, sample size, but the notion that Iosivas drops a ton of balls and that Higgins is a saint in that regard, is blatantly false.

Im not talking just dropped throws.  Im talking about contested throws where the DB easily knocks the ball out of Iosivas' hands where other receivers like Tee can out muscle and fight through the DB.  Iosivas didnt do well with DB's being physical with him.  The DB might get credit for a pass break up but part of the reason is because Iosivas just didnt do very well with contested throws.

(06-01-2024, 05:30 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Im not talking just dropped throws.  Im talking about contested throws where the DB easily knocks the ball out of Iosivas' hands where other receivers like Tee can out muscle and fight through the DB.  Iosivas didnt do well with DB's being physical with him.  The DB might get credit for a pass break up but part of the reason is because Iosivas just didnt do very well with contested throws.

Hopefully that had something to do with the jump from competing against ivy league DBs to NFL DBs.

(05-29-2024, 03:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Pay Ja'Marr Chase, he deserves to be paid like a top 5 WR and we can afford him. Keep Chase here and the rest can be a carousel and
we should be more than fine. I don't see us tagging Tee twice either, expect him to leave for nothing after this year. All we can hope is 
that Tee has a great year and finally stays healthy in doing so and we win the Super Bowl before he leaves.

I agree Nate. When you have a #1 like Chase, he creates opportunities for other WR's. If they got what it takes? They thrive and move on. If they don't, goodbye the same. As Bill Murray said in Stripes, "That's a FACT JACK!"

(05-31-2024, 05:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: Uh, no.  He played 26% of the offensive snaps because he played 26% of the offensive snaps.  Those are tallied different s than ST's snaps, which he played 51% of.  He had a low number of targets, true, but that can be a large number of different factors.  Route assignments, not getting open, the QB not being able to trust him to make tough catches, etc.  He got plenty of snaps.  He just wasn't very good.  

Hands catching can be improved somewhat, but natural ability in that area is extremely important, also.  And Yoshi's worked on this ever since he started playing football.  Kid actually bought his own jugs machine to work with when he was at Princeton.  Could he improve some?  Certainly.  Will he ever be a plus hands guy?  Doubtful.

So him not being a primary target = Not Very Good

We're just doomed this year, doomed... 

Speaking of Yoshi:

(06-04-2024, 06:39 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I agree Nate. When you have a #1 like Chase, he creates opportunities for other WR's. If they got what it takes? They thrive and move on. If they don't, goodbye the same. As Bill Murray said in Stripes, "That's a FACT JACK!"

Yes sir!!!

(06-05-2024, 11:34 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So him not being a primary target = Not Very Good

We're just doomed this year, doomed... 

*Shrugs*

I guess you were a lot more impressed by his 4 catches on 8 Targets for 36 yards(including a pathetic 1 RAC) in that December gotta have it game against the Steelers.  He followed that up with another 36 yard performance against the Browns backups in Week 17 off of 7 targets (did have 2 TD's, though).  So in two games as a primary receiver, he had 72 yards on 15 targets and 2 TD's(both against backups headed for the playoffs and were just trying to get out of the game healthy and not tip too much).  Not very good.  It's almost like the coaches weren't using him as a primary receiver before that because he was...wait for it...not very good.

(06-05-2024, 05:24 PM)Whatever Wrote: *Shrugs*

I guess you were a lot more impressed by his 4 catches on 8 Targets for 36 yards(including a pathetic 1 RAC) in that December gotta have it game against the Steelers.  He followed that up with another 36 yard performance against the Browns backups in Week 17 off of 7 targets (did have 2 TD's, though).  So in two games as a primary receiver, he had 72 yards on 15 targets and 2 TD's(both against backups headed for the playoffs and were just trying to get out of the game healthy and not tip too much).  Not very good.  It's almost like the coaches weren't using him as a primary receiver before that because he was...wait for it...not very good.

I'm not denying that he had rookie struggles as a late round pick, but to your way of logic it would be impossible for him to develop into anything positive for the team.

IMO NFL agents are bad at math. JaMaar Chase is looking at a salary of less than $5M in 2024, followed by option year at $24M. And potentially followed by a tagged year at 30+M (with no signing bonus). That's 3 years for ~$58M and no signing bonus. Jefferson will be paid $78M for the same period, mostly due to the $37M signing bonus.

It would make all the sense in the world to give a hometown discount to void the remaining years on the contract and get a contract that gives the player the security of a signing bonus and multiyear contract even if it isn't the "biggest contract ever". Seems every new contract has to jump aboard the hype train.

(06-05-2024, 06:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm not denying that he had rookie struggles as a late round pick, but to your way of logic it would be impossible for him to develop into anything positive for the team.

He is a positive for the team.  He played over half of the ST's snaps and will probably be a core ST's guy going forward.  If he can give you 4 years of that on the cheap, plus be your WR 4/5, then that's a good return on a 6th round pick.

Could he become more?  Yes.  Am I rooting for him to become more?  Yes.  Has he really shown any indication to this point that he will become more than that?  No.  And the odds are not in his favor, either.  We've had two WR's drafted in the 4th or later become significant contributors to the offense this century.  Arguably three if you want to count Tate, who had a 500 yard year off of 80 targets for a bad and injury ridden WR corps, but he did basically nothing his other three years before leaving and washing out of the league entirely a year after leaving.  The odds on Day 3 picks becoming quality contributors are very long and we can't just just sit there and hope they beat the odds and develop into them 

With the WR prices going up so high it would be better to invest a 1st or 2nd round pick every few years and do not re-sign the WR position. Use those funds on other spots just let the players contract run out and bring in younger talent. We draft pretty good at WR is another reason to go this route as well.

I think we should re-sign Chase since him and Burrow are close. But to try to keep more than one WR after the rookie deals, I do not see that working with the price increases.

(06-06-2024, 11:05 AM)Whatever Wrote: He is a positive for the team.  He played over half of the ST's snaps and will probably be a core ST's guy going forward.  If he can give you 4 years of that on the cheap, plus be your WR 4/5, then that's a good return on a 6th round pick.

Could he become more?  Yes.  Am I rooting for him to become more?  Yes.  Has he really shown any indication to this point that he will become more than that?  No.  And the odds are not in his favor, either.  We've had two WR's drafted in the 4th or later become significant contributors to the offense this century.  Arguably three if you want to count Tate, who had a 500 yard year off of 80 targets for a bad and injury ridden WR corps, but he did basically nothing his other three years before leaving and washing out of the league entirely a year after leaving.  The odds on Day 3 picks becoming quality contributors are very long and we can't just just sit there and hope they beat the odds and develop into them 

Why not?

Nothing wrong with hope, I live on the stuff. BTW, Andres Iosivas might be the best athlete on the entire team, a team that has Ja'Marr Chase
on it. If he can learn to run better routes and especially learn how to be a hands catcher the sky is the limit with the guy. He did more as a rookie
than I thought he would of done, more than Charlie Jones and if Jake Browning saw him running wide open a couple times he would of done much
more pretty sure.

(06-06-2024, 12:28 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Why not?

Nothing wrong with hope, I live on the stuff. BTW, Andres Iosivas might be the best athlete on the entire team, a team that has Ja'Marr Chase
on it. If he can learn to run better routes and especially learn how to be a hands catcher the sky is the limit with the guy. He did more as a rookie
than I thought he would of done, more than Charlie Jones and if Jake Browning saw him running wide open a couple times he would of done much
more pretty sure.

Exactly. In both Stealer games he beat the defenders like a rented mule at least three times and all three Browning just stood there with the ball. Twice it resulted in sacks. 

Not saying Browning is a bad QB - he isn't. But he has some areas in his game to refine and one was decisiveness. If you have a receiver wide open in the end zone you fire. Once we get to preseason I want to see if his release has been speeded up. 

Walters came out in support of Iosivas today, saying he's in the mix for starters reps.

I know, coach speak and all that, but let's hope it means something this time.

(06-06-2024, 12:28 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Why not?

Nothing wrong with hope, I live on the stuff. BTW, Andres Iosivas might be the best athlete on the entire team, a team that has Ja'Marr Chase
on it. If he can learn to run better routes and especially learn how to be a hands catcher the sky is the limit with the guy. He did more as a rookie
than I thought he would of done, more than Charlie Jones and if Jake Browning saw him running wide open a couple times he would of done much
more pretty sure.

(06-06-2024, 01:57 PM)Joelist Wrote: Exactly. In both Stealer games he beat the defenders like a rented mule at least three times and all three Browning just stood there with the ball. Twice it resulted in sacks. 

Not saying Browning is a bad QB - he isn't. But he has some areas in his game to refine and one was decisiveness. If you have a receiver wide open in the end zone you fire. Once we get to preseason I want to see if his release has been speeded up. 

You guys would have a point if literally every receiver in the league didn't have a number of plays a year where they got open, but just didn't get the ball for any number of reasons.  Everyone deals with it, not just Yoshi, and it's not right to curve one guy's production and nobody else's.